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Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Russian Contexts, Myths and Truths

Author	Message
Keoki Lounge Lizard Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 117 Location: Moscow	Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Jutrzenkapolska wrote: Well, I was in Oahu for a week, not four years like you but in my experience, it was lovely. Great beaches, great food, great everything. You poor thing - with your complexion, I bet you burned pretty badly! Redheads aren't made for the sun.
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: MrSpice wrote: First of all, I like petty argument and will argue with you even if I don't what I am arguing about and why... Russia is a developing country - that's how you should approach it. It's not Finland and not Sweden and never will be like those places. That's why people from the West are interested in Russia so much. Very "sovok," Spice! Cheers! And whether you got charged or not (and you didn't), you took a towel belonging to the hotel without asking them - that is technically theft. I know "everyone does it" but it still doesn't make it right. I'm not used to hotels, anyway, as usually I stay with friends, at decent motels, or have my own place - in Moscow I'll have a dorm, so no big issue. But yeah, letting some not-so-great incidents at the hotel color your view of the city, the country and ruin your trip seems rather silly. I guess I'm just one of those people who never expects much out of motels/hotels - and I'm rarely disappointed.
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: You really do not understand. It wasn't just the hotel, though I suspect if any of you traveled somewhere and could not even use the bathroom in your room, you might have a different attitude. I am talking about basic services not glamor. And for a developing country, St. Petersburg does not have a problem charging pretty high prices for hotels, meals and tickets for tourists. The babushka at Pushkin would not even let my son use the porta pottybecause he did not have the necessary coins. Give me a break. I have a much deeper appreciation for the US after this trip. We went to a free concert on a beautiful green in a nearby town commons last night. The concert was a Jimmy Buffett band called Changes in Latitude. People brought coolers, picnics and there were free things for the kids. The night was gorgeous and after the concert they even had a big screen to show a movie. It was a completely relaxing, beautiful, fun event that cost nothing. And when people needed to use toilets, they were available inside, including one suitable for not only persons in wheelchairs but for parents who need to change diapers of their babies. You may miss my point but God it is good to be home.
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vitalsigns Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784	Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Retiring... Last edited by vitalsigns on Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Finally, someone does understand. God bless you!!! Oh if I WAS ONLY A GUY! atleast for this important affair.
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vitalsigns Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Retiring... Last edited by vitalsigns on Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: You're absolutely right Vital Signs. Westernized countries and probably even more so socialist countries put people's needs first. They are far more humanistic. They respect differences and human rights. They make laws to insure that people are protected etc. While no country and gov't. is perfect, there is no denying that quality of life in westernized and socialist countries is far superior to Russia. That is why so many immigrants come to US, Russians, Poles, you name it. If I lived in Russia, I would not even get out of my lousy apartment or worse, be confined to a soviet style institution or hospital. I agree with Vital Signs that the attitude in the Russian Federation is rather oblivious to individuals and humanistic needs. I am certain that most people on WTR will be offended re these statements. But I have learned that most of the posters here are still living in their own fantasy world of Russia. And Russians living there, well they don't know better.
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vitalsigns Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:50 am    Post subject: Retiring... Last edited by vitalsigns on Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:42 am    Post subject: I say, that's a decent post, vital signs. I don't know about your claim about Mr. Fauste's nationalisitic thoughts regarding Canada, but I remember Alice questioning your loyalty to Russia or whatever. [She must be studying really hard still!! ] Quote: Maybe there's a connection between nationalism and socialist thinking? Possibly. Or it could be just a combination of things. I think every nation has citizens that are nationalistic to an extent. Or at certain times, show a side of nationalism. I think it is a sign of people losing the ability to be objective and being unable to criticize (i.e. be critical). Some experts claim it is a psychological phenomenon but I'm not going to get into that here. I think there is a difference though between someone who is extremely nationalistic and those who are just proud of their country. The ones who refuse to listen to any other idea than their own prejudices and beliefs, they are the ones we usually talk about. I don't think they are limited to only Russians. But, I also think it is when a society is in primarily a collective type, that it becomes dangerous. At least, in countries like the U.S. or Canada, for e.g., even though they may have its nationalistic elements, there are always a lot of people who have the "transparent" eyesight. They see through the manipulations. They can be objective and aren't so willing to be sheep.
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:20 am    Post subject: Not quite sure what you mean Vital Signs regarding "Some People". You need to be more specific. From your definitions, I can easily attest that I am patriotic, though I dislike this label, because I am not a supporter of our President, so the label seems wrong. However I also do not think US is the BEST etc. I do think that developing countries and third world countries are of course at a lower quality standard of life. Who can even dispute this? I think it is fine to be loyal, proud etc. of one's country no matter what, but WTR folks should be able to take a little criticism re Russia. Like someone said, it is not Paradise.
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vitalsigns Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:29 am    Post subject: Retiring... Last edited by vitalsigns on Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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MrSpice Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: cyndy: You are right about the toilets, however it's quite difficult to find toilets in the middle of New York either. I totally agree that in turns of getting free stuff, Russia cannot even compare to the US for a very simple reason - it's poor. And poverty and the Soviet past form the mindsets of people. I cannot tell how many times I saw russian immigrants here in the US pilling up on free ketchup packets at a local McDonalds :) It does not seem to happen much anymore, but 8-10 years ago I saw it quite often. Old habits die hard. And outside of St Petersburg and Moscow, things are probably much close to the old soviet reality. The progress in service quality is much more noticeable in large cities becase that's where more well-to-do russians live, that's where the investment is and that's where most tourists are. You have to understand that basic economic reality of most developing countries - once you get our of large towns, you are likely to see more poverty and less development. In general, as we discussed before, Europe tends to be much more urban. Culture and business concentrate in the city, while in the US live in the suburbs is often better in many ways than in the city. That's where middle classes was "escaping" in the 70s/80s from cities' problems. I felt that basic tourist needs are addressed in St Petersburg nowadays. I was luckier than you and my hotel was nice. I was pleasantly surprused to see that many even cheap hotels in the center now have toilets, unlike in the past. I thought bars and restaurants and clubs provided good service at reasonable prices. Regarding hotel prices and how high they are you should remember that White Nights is the time when most hotels in St Petersburg make most money. That's when most tourists come to St Petersburg, so the prices are pretty high. Add to that, lack of real competition. And over the last 3-4 years, many small hotels have openned. So, at least there are more choices now. If you felt St Petersburg was bad now, I could only imagine what you would say if you visited that city 10-11 years ago. It was poor, dark, very few restaurants, hotels or services, lines of people for basics and poverty everywhere, mafia types standing around metro stations, senior citizens selling everything everywhere, etc. It was really bad. And don't forget - just in 1998 (7 years ago), Russia suferred from one of the worst currency and economic crisis ever when the rubble got devalued and people were linining up in front of banks to get their money that were basically evaporating. So, you have to keep it in perspective... If I went to Pushkin (unfortunately I did not), I would expect to see a soviet-style suburb with no services and where I would need to give out single dollar bills to get anything - from toilets to other things. When I visited poor areas of Mexico, I would just go to any small restaurant, gave them a dollar bill and went to the bathroom that had a large "for customers only sign"
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Anya Lounge Lizard Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 157	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject: MrSpice wrote: cyndy: You are right about the toilets, however it's quite difficult to find toilets in the middle of New York either. I totally agree that in turns of getting free stuff, Russia cannot even compare to the US for a very simple reason - it's poor. And poverty and the Soviet past form the mindsets of people. I cannot tell how many times I saw russian immigrants here in the US pilling up on free ketchup packets at a local McDonalds It does not seem to happen much anymore, but 8-10 years ago I saw it quite often. Old habits die hard. Allow me to be a little but superficial... now regarding ketchup packs at Macs... well here you pay for each packet (like some countries do) so no sign of that in Moscow. However when it comes to 'free stuff', it doesn't always have to do with people being poor. Take Singapore for example, even though most people are considered pretty well-ff, people will still pile on ketchup packs even though they are not poor! Sometimes they take a whole wad of free plastic bags in supermarkets, lots of toothpicks in restaurants etc. even though they'll never use the bulk of them. Yes, probably older folks do that more, but that 'freebie' mentality is still there. One thing that really pissed me off was that when Borders bookstore opened, they attracted a lot of people because you can settle in those comfy chairs and read the books (while most bookstores shoo you out when you browse/read too long and not buy anything) and take the books to read in the cafe. However people came there only to get free reads and hog piles of books--despite the fact that we have a *very good* network of library branches!--and after that Borders disallowed anybody to bring books to the cafe. And I'm not going into the return policies people often abuse...
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:49 pm    Post subject: Quote: One thing that really pissed me off was that when Borders bookstore opened, they attracted a lot of people because you can settle in those comfy chairs and read the books (while most bookstores shoo you out when you browse/read too long and not buy anything) and take the books to read in the cafe. However people came there only to get free reads and hog piles of books--despite the fact that we have a *very good* network of library branches!--and after that Borders disallowed anybody to bring books to the cafe. That actually happens here a lot. At both Borders, Barnes & Nobles and even indie bookstores, where people come to read but never buy. I've done that a few times. The stores here actually encourage it becuase some of these people buy coffee and food and plus the marketing logic: theres warm bodies in an otherwise empty store. Some stores even endorse poetry slams, book readings, and even meetings of groups, and they don't care if people dont buy anything. Ditto for return policies. I did a stint at the Gap when I was in school and we actively encouraged returns, exchanges and the friends and family specials as long as they didn't break the rules. People avused it all of the time, and we'd give them a smile and accept it. This is the US where customer service is king and thereby the customer is king, and we were trained that the customer can do and treat you in whatever way they want as long as the person doesn't steal or damage the store as to Russia and the rest of the world where it appears to be the opposite. And as for people being cheapskates, I agree with Spice, and its not just limited to Russia. When I was at the Gap, the store was packed and was a madhouse during clearance sales, but empty during regular prices. And i've seen BMWs, Mercedes, and Jaguars parked in the lots of Target and Walmart many times. Of course, they are in "disguise" when they are shopping in there.
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: I do agree with you Mr. Spice and E too. I should not have expected that even St. Petersburg would have the same quality of service, philosopy, standards etc. that wealthier countries have. I should have known better especially since I have been to Russia before, though under different circumstances. I think I wanted to see things under rose colored glasses and while the city does have incredible beauty in its architecture, bridges, canals and sea, I had a hard time seeing and experiencing a less rosy picture in terms of extremely limited accessibility, lack of helpful information, an uncaring attitude by many in the service industry, poverty and poor quality housing, lack of regard for pedestrians and inflexibility and a incredible fixation of getting as much money as you can from tourists. Estonia was a little better but not much. I know that I have expressed considerable disappointment in my trip, but really it had good times and was interesting. We did and saw alot, in spite of limited access we went everywhere, asking for help when necessary. I was able to speak to many Russians and younger people especially were very open and seemed to enjoy talking with me. We had a great evening at a nice Russian restaurant where we hooked up with a Russian friend of Paul Holmes, a 20 year old medical student in Piter , my friend Natasha, her 18 year old daughter Katya and a German fellow. The company was great as was the food and drink. In this restaurant, they allowed me to access through the back, through the kitchen which was easier. So yes private sector as Spice said is more flexible and helpful. I am glad I visted St. Petersburg even if I was disappointed in some things. I am very lucky to see this city and its richness iin terms of history, architecture and culture. As some of you know, I am a critcal person, but I am also not close minded. I may be more high maintenance when it comes to travel than many here but it is due to my personal circumstances.
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