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dc197
Frequent Guest
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 14
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 Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: Queuing in Russia. What's the obsession with queuing? |
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Hello all
I've just returned from a very enjoyable trip to Moscow and St Pete.
One of the things I found frustrating was the queuing.
Why must EVERYTHING involve a queue?
For example, to get into the Kremlin I waited in 4 different queues. One to get a ticket, which was apparently the tours-only queue, then a second correct queue, for a ticket; then a queue to hand-in my rucksack, then to get through the doors, and then again at each cathedral inside the walls.
And buying a train ticket. I was warned to expect a queue but REALLY! Why must it take 5-10 minutes to issue a ticket? What's wrong with "ticket to X please", "1000R pleaes", "thanks"? It took forever to issue the ticket, for which I had to supply my passport (yes it's 2004).
And that was after an hour-long queue (there were only about 10 people in front of me though), exhasperated by the fact that the assistant took an UNSCHEDULED money-counting break for 30 minutes in the middle!
Then finally, leaving at the airport, to exit through passport control. The woman needed only to say "Yes" my papers were in order, stamp; or "No" I could not leave. But again it took her 4 minutes per person to decide this.
The Balkan guys in front of me each had an issue with their passport. The woman had to call her colleague over for each - but having done so the colleague asked no questions of the guy, pressed no buttons, or did anything. Evidently the papers were in order all along, so why yhe 10 minute delay??
Sorry, rant over.
I would like to hear your views on why things have to involve a queue?
Warm regards
Daniel |
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Filimon
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmm, I always thought that queues were a British invention  |
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Dr-Fauste
Site Admin
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Word is French, Governments of all nations have perfected it.
We in the west have the "Give me conveniency or give me death". In Russia, you will slow service, but a good meal. In the west, Burger in 5 minutes, but tastes like a hockey puck. |
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joera
Frequent Guest
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:10 am Post subject: |
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queing for the kremlin or mausoleum, winterpalace is not the russians fault, rather the stupidity of tourists that all want to see the same thing.
the van gogh museum and the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam has queues everyday, same goes for louvre etcetera
Russian train travel is covering the whole country so crosses regional borders. to compare it to a for example the US. How to get to another State? by plane... how easy that is? Russia has trains. Many people have to make sure that they can have a returnticket on a specific date, maybe they even have children. just taking the train to a neighboring city often involves day long trips. it'is quite some planning
but yes the quees are a drag, not so much because you have to wait long, but more because people seem to make deals, watch eachothers places, return just in front of you when you think you're almost there,.. use millions of tricks to get in front of you. You feel cheated and you start to loath them russians. you however are just a foreigner and don't understand the system.
The system is rather simple. When you arrive you got to ask who is last. Doing so you take the place behind that person. when the line is long and you're confident you can even have a seat and return later. The person before you will confirm to other people that you are behind him or her. However being a foreigner i suggest you keep in your place. |
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Dr-Fauste
Site Admin
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Simple, offer someone a little extra to a get a ticket for you. |
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Intourist
Talk Show Host
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Your question doesn't seem to be about queues, really, but rather about why everything takes so long. I mean, given the situations you described (passport control taking 4 minutes per person or train ticket purchases taking 10 minute per person), it's not unreasonable to see why there are so many queues. It would be chaos if there weren't some semblence of a queue (which is another topic altogether).
The more appopriate question is really why so many things take so much time. I think there are probably several reasons, but the primary one, in my opinion, is that Russia still exists within a system that was created to prevent abuse and violations. Rules and regulations constantly display an inherent distrust for the populace in general. As such, it contains checks and balances, stamps, double checks, confirmations, receipts, additional forms, etc.
I bet the passport control ladies check your passport against three or four different systems. Half of their work is probably not automated through any modern IT information system and the other half is paperwork and bureacracy. Same thing with the train tickets.
Why not overhaul everything ? Because it's too deeply embedded. Too many people feed at the trough. There must be hundreds of thousands of fifty five year old overweight nasty babushkas whose only function is filing reams and reams of papers that could have long ago been electronically archived.
And no one likes it. It's bureacracy. It's the system. It's life. |
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Filimon
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Intourist, I agree. It shows everywhere, not just in bureaucratic procedures. Lack of what is commonly known as "good faith" in the West. The presumption is that the person you have just met is a crook unless they prove otherwise. Having said that, this is a safety mechanism, which is quite necessary in today's Russia. Problem is, if it's used for too long it wmay become to embeddedand thus very difficult to get rid of. |
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Dr-Fauste
Site Admin
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Has service gotten better or worse since the break up ? |
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Intourist
Talk Show Host
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Fil,
I'm not saying it's not necessary. I think some of it is. I remember showing and explaining to a Russian colleague what the difference between a credit card and a check/debit card was. When he understood, his first question was to how it could be abused to gain money. "Why can't I just move and not pay back the bill ?"
But, there's a certain amount that's just poorly thought out, too. What about the still somewhat prevalent system of queuing three times in grocery stores (once to see the price and get a receipt, second for the kassa, third to get item). Management, however, is beginning to see that it's more time, space and cost effective to just install cameras and hire a guard, than staff the store with three people for each 'otdel'. It is slowly being eliminated.
I think there are aspects of the bureacracy that could be made infinitely more effective than they are now. And, some IT systems would allow you to maintain the security/checks & balances aspects while still increasing effeiciency (and queueing time) by 50%.
I'm no effeciency expert........I just play one on TV. |
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Filimon
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr Fauste wrote: | | Has service gotten better or worse since the break up ? |
Sounds like "break-up of marriage"
Much better! The system described by Intourist is hardly used any more. Many shops have adopted either a supermarket style floor or OTC sales where you pay and get the product simultaneously.
I come from a small town on the Black Sea, where the quality of life has gone up tenfold since the fall of USSR, despite the fat that during Brezhnev's time it had it all, since it was the place where he fought in WWII |
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Dr-Fauste
Site Admin
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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How do you like your new Bronze Statue of him ?LOL
It amazes me that people believe that transformation will happen over night and that in a week after break up the USSR would like the USA. First change cannot happen that quickly and two you are not the USA. To many people want to visit a country and think like home. The only things that REALLY bothered me about Russia is the driving in Moscow(crazy) . It seemed more safe than many American cities. I do not why, but there are more beggars in Canada than Moscow. It is terrible here and there is jobs available to work.
How many of you have been outside of CIS and where? |
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Intourist
Talk Show Host
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Filimon wrote: | | Dr Fauste wrote: | | Has service gotten better or worse since the break up ? |
Much better! The system described by Intourist is hardly used any more. Many shops have adopted either a supermarket style floor or OTC sales where you pay and get the product simultaneously. |
I dunno, Fil, I think the more you get away from the big cities, the more you see it. I've lived in Podmoskoviye up until last year, and almost every store there still has that system.
I agree that it's more or less non-existant in Moscow, but it does still exist.
To answer Faust's question, yeah, Fil's right. It's definitely much better service-wise. Service was a non-existant issue before 91-92. Waiters and waitresses, for example, received their salary not from tips and didn't really care whether you came back again. In fact, since they got their money anyway, they would have preferred if you hadn't come the first time. |
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Intourist
Talk Show Host
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Faust,
It somewhat depends on where you are, but even in the most 'Soviet' of rural establishments, it's common to at least round up to the next 100 ruble increment. In Moscow, I try to leave about 10% of the bill in nicer places, and a fifty or hundred ruble note in others. |
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Jim-in-NJ-USA
Just Starting
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:54 pm Post subject: Ques in Russia |
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| Dr Fauste wrote: | Word is French, Governments of all nations have perfected it.
We in the west have the "Give me conveniency or give me death". In Russia, you will slow service, but a good meal. In the west, Burger in 5 minutes, but tastes like a hockey puck. |
Good point. I'd also note, our fast-food here in the US (McDonalds, Burger King, etc) they are all serving up death with the fat / cholesterol in their food. |
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UsualSuspect
WayToRussified
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 324
Location: The Land of Oz
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:34 am Post subject: Service with a sneer - a heartwarming subject |
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Guys,
About the queueing, Disneyland in California aged me about 500 years with the queues there, and I reckon Russia isn't bad by that measure (except the Post Office!!!  ). The passport control is annoying. You get the evil eye when they compare your photo to the real you, as well as a heaight check (there is a transparent gauge behind you). I had a peek over the counter once and your passport is flouroscoped, as well as a computer based query entered. Then she entered my details, gave me the evil eye again and pulverised the stamping machine about 5 times over everything.
FSU people are even more carefully scrutinised and the wait can be mind numbing. And heaven help you if someone in front has a problem...
My fiancee regularly regales me with tales of shopping for vodka when Gorby brought in prohibition. She said a queue 400 metres long was not unusual and would occassionally involve the death of a chronic alcoholic who didn't get to the front in time. Queueing at the railway station for tickets is novel as well. People often get their friends or relatives to buy tickets for everyone. And when you finally get to the front you may find yourself surrounded......(This is a foreigners viewpoint by the way!!) by any and all interested parties......
She tells me that it's a sort of unconscious rebelling against the "old style" queueing that went on under Soviet rule.
Intourist's last statement about "already paid and would prefer if you weren't there" just about hits the nail on the head. And this too is a legacy of the soviet regime where employment was guarenteed. It is now just a carry-on. I know some of the supermarket chains have a policy now of sacking people who ignore the customers. Is it better now? Well, I'll believe the Russians who answer if they say it is better......unfortunately I'll remain mired in my belief that there is still a long way to go even in the plain civility stakes in the "customer service" related areas.
I am, however, grateful that the banalities (Have a nice day! etc) associated with service industries in the west are not present in Russia (well, as far as I know....)
two cents, but I could give you the dollars worth.....
Usualsuspect |
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