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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Urals
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 Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Russia was not considered the aggressor until they invaded Georgia and stayed. If they pushed Georgia out and left it that, then the west could not say anything. But why invade and why stay and why declare their independence? Wrong decision. I think we have a battle of egos. |
I think that attack on russian military personel is enough to enter the Tbilisi and change Georgian government but Russian forces were very soft. After all it was war.
EU and US refused to condemn Georgia's actions at very early stages. Once Russia entered South Ossetia it was immediately marked at agressor. Everyone magically forgot that Georgia started the assault. Thus EU and US instill feelings in the hearts of Georgians that war against South Ossetia is the right thing just temporarily impossible because of evil Russians, Ossetians and Abkhazians ("Damn! those Untermensch don't want to be killed, we'll fix this sooner or later"). They both encourage Georgia to attempt to do same thing again by rearming its army and giving money to it.
Recognition of their independence was simply next logical step. They were independent de facto over 15 years. Of course it will helps in the next wave of agression. Masks are thrown out. There are many other reasons to recognize their indepence (yes probably oil too, but this isn't only reason).
Soldier's humor. Written somewhere on the wall of Gori.
http://de.fishki.net/picsw/092008/04/soldier/006.jpg
The writing on the wall is barely translable play of words written in style of banners from soviet time but... rough translation: "Comrades Georgians, study military art properly!!! We'll come and check!!! 71 guard's MSP." |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Holmes wrote: | | How the press were being shot at by Ossetian Irregular troops? Where the reporters in this area now? |
If you about that Turkish press (that was mistakenly wounded and then delivered to the hospital), you obviously unable to think. Funny you don't answered my question but switched to another. So did I need to repeat it?
There are two questions hanging there:
1. Name of country that condemn Georgian actions in South Ossetia.
2. Where these damn satellite images that prove everything? Where that amasing Japanese super-duper technology that shows how russian army invading South Ossetia, or shelling Tskhnivali with grads.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | I love this comparison to the USA. Everything you say is about the USA. Did one American soldier invade Ossetia? Did the USA invade Georgia? |
Are you able to read? It is not a comparsion. It is a fact. USA - armed and trained Georgian army. Now they are rearming it. Actions U.S. and EU give Georgia a sign that they made good thing - started the war.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | No, American is to busy trying to find out Sarah Palin's bra size. |
Palin's bra size happened much later than war in South Ossetia. Don't distort the sequence of events.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Saakshavilli, well like everyone said here. We can understand why he made a scene, that is to make attention to the west about his country, but complete invasion was just stupid. Russia to retaliate to rid the Georgia was reasonable, but to occupy and refuse to leave was just stupid. |
Again. When it becomes about place, time, sequence of events, military actions you become extremely hopeless. It is on purpose or simply state of mind - to selectively forget unpleasant things? It is not complete invasion. Complete invasion it is when Russian army stops on southern borders of Georgia, Saakashvili is hanged man and Tbilisy is destroyed. You can find examples of complete invasions in the modern history (yes I'm aware about Grozny, however there are others). Or you need help?
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Really my country does not give a rat ass about Russia. Really, we everything you have plus more. WE do not need your oil, gas, Iron ore, or anything. Everytime we try to do business, you have some bureaucracy issue to steal (why oligrachs show up in my country with fucking guns like some fucking gangsters) and that is why money is flowing outside Russia. You do not trust the west, who gives a shit. The world does not trust Russia. The world does revolve around Russia or the USA |
If the world means NATO then yes, world doesn't trust Russia. If your country so indifferent to Russia why do you so intensively defend point of view of U.S and EU? |
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darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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So, what proportion of Georgians live in Abkhazia and South Ossetia these days, compared to say, 15 years ago?
Any demographic trends? If so, any explanations for the trend? |
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Paul Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Ender wrote: | | Paul Holmes wrote: | | How the press were being shot at by Ossetian Irregular troops? Where the reporters in this area now? |
If you about that Turkish press (that was mistakenly wounded and then delivered to the hospital), you obviously unable to think. Funny you don't answered my question but switched to another. So did I need to repeat it?
There are two questions hanging there:
1. Name of country that condemn Georgian actions in South Ossetia.
2. Where these damn satellite images that prove everything? Where that amasing Japanese super-duper technology that shows how russian army invading South Ossetia, or shelling Tskhnivali with grads.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | I love this comparison to the USA. Everything you say is about the USA. Did one American soldier invade Ossetia? Did the USA invade Georgia? |
Are you able to read? It is not a comparsion. It is a fact. USA - armed and trained Georgian army. Now they are rearming it. Actions U.S. and EU give Georgia a sign that they made good thing - started the war.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | No, American is to busy trying to find out Sarah Palin's bra size. |
Palin's bra size happened much later than war in South Ossetia. Don't distort the sequence of events.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Saakshavilli, well like everyone said here. We can understand why he made a scene, that is to make attention to the west about his country, but complete invasion was just stupid. Russia to retaliate to rid the Georgia was reasonable, but to occupy and refuse to leave was just stupid. |
Again. When it becomes about place, time, sequence of events, military actions you become extremely hopeless. It is on purpose or simply state of mind - to selectively forget unpleasant things? It is not complete invasion. Complete invasion it is when Russian army stops on southern borders of Georgia, Saakashvili is hanged man and Tbilisy is destroyed. You can find examples of complete invasions in the modern history (yes I'm aware about Grozny, however there are others). Or you need help?
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Really my country does not give a rat ass about Russia. Really, we everything you have plus more. WE do not need your oil, gas, Iron ore, or anything. Everytime we try to do business, you have some bureaucracy issue to steal (why oligrachs show up in my country with fucking guns like some fucking gangsters) and that is why money is flowing outside Russia. You do not trust the west, who gives a shit. The world does not trust Russia. The world does revolve around Russia or the USA |
If the world means NATO then yes, world doesn't trust Russia. If your country so indifferent to Russia why do you so intensively defend point of view of U.S and EU? |
What does condemnation and satellite mean anything here? I don't know and don't care. Did I mention any thing about this to you? Try your friend Xela.
Reporters, google yourself.
America is concerned about their election right now and their dead economy. Maybe Russia should do the same before it happens.
Oh. I love your Nazi Russian point of hanging Saakshivilli. Adolf Hilter would be proud of you. Amazing, that if a Russian man wakes up with a hangover, it is America's fault. Just like America blames everything on Islamic terrorists. Shows what kind of a Nazi you are truly are. Kill and shoot and hang. Good solutions. When the economy starts to slide or people start to become suspicious, start a war. That was the suggestion by George Orwell in 1984. There was a joke that every 10 years, Russia and USA have to invade somewhere. I guess this is not a joke.
I had enough of you and your fascist ideas. |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Holmes wrote: | | What does condemnation and satellite mean anything here? I don't know and don't care. Did I mention any thing about this to you? Try your friend Xela. |
Oh, sorry. It wasn't your message.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Oh. I love your Nazi Russian point of hanging Saakshivilli. Adolf Hilter would be proud of you. Amazing, that if a Russian man wakes up with a hangover, it is America's fault. |
I just tried to tell you what complete invasion means - all enemy territory occupied, its miltary forces are scattered or destroyed, its leaders are killed, jailed or fled. At least how politicians of XX century understand it. It looks like nothing changed in XXI. None of this happened in Georgia.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | Just like America blames everything on Islamic terrorists. Shows what kind of a Nazi you are truly are. Kill and shoot and hang. Good solutions. |
Saakashvili is still alive and eating his tie, isn't he? Tbilisi still untouched, isn't it? BTW, do you know that there is about 1 millon of Georgians living and working in Russia and nobody is going to touch them. Government can start checking and I won't be surprised if half of them illegally crossed borders. Do you see anti-Georgian PR campaign in Russia? I don't. There are also anti-Russian speeches of famous Georgians who live in Russia. Kikabidze for example. Still alive and working, though I don't know who will watch his concerts after his words. I can't imagine better illustration to Russia's "fascist" intentions.
| Paul Holmes wrote: | | When the economy starts to slide or people start to become suspicious, start a war. That was the suggestion by George Orwell in 1984. There was a joke that every 10 years, Russia and USA have to invade somewhere. I guess this is not a joke. I had enough of you and your fascist ideas. |
You've just described situation in Georgia. Except that Georgia blames everything on Russia. During soviet times it was one of most prosperous republics, but after dissolution of Soviet Union republic fell into the poverty because everything was shitted away.
Russia didn't started this war, though it was ready to act. |
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greg222
VIP
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 600
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Holmes wrote: | Russia was not considered the aggressor until they invaded Georgia and stayed. If they pushed Georgia out and left it that, then the west could not say anything. But why invade and why stay and why declare their independence? Wrong decision.
I think we have a battle of egos. |
I agree that recognising their independence was provocative. But, please, Russia would have been criticised regardless - reality makes little difference to what the West has been saying. How many times have you heard Georgia being labeled democratic over the past month? Even while the OSCE is releasing reports about significant violations during their May elections...
You might remember that Russia was already being criticized by the West during the Olympic opening ceremony. At that point their army hadn't moved outside of South Ossetia. As I said, it might be a legitimate criticism to say Russia's actions were disproportionate, but it's wrong to portray them as the aggressor and Georgia as the victim. The comments of the Czech President are spot on in my opinion.
Unfortunately, it seems it's easier for the Western media to interpret all events related to Russia through a "Russia=bad" filter. Moreover, it was clear during this conflict that Russia is light years behind the West, and also Georgia, in PR tactics: the manipulation of the media and reporting processes by Georgia was infinitely superior to Russia's. |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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+1 to greg222, except that I can't understand how to measure level of the proportionality.
Moreover, Russian forces will go away from territory of Georgia when OSCE observers arrive. Thus Georgia remains in its borders that are 15 years old.
Last edited by Ender on Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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greg222,
You agree with the Czech president, which means you agree with the man who enjoyed letting Russians destroy his country, the man who is hated by many of his own countrymen, and the man who enjoyed several immoral affairs with young women.
If Russians only have this man to fall back on, then I not only feel very sorry for Russians, but would also suggest that this is proof that the Russians are in the wrong.
Just for the record, general Czech opinion, indeed that of the former President, is that Russia is completely in the wrong.
This has nothing to do with media portrayal. Russians have been the worst culprits in terms of propaganda anyway.
This is about truth, and about the fact that the world has caught the Russians out, and discovered that Russia is no longer a place anybody wants to have any respect for.
And for all those who need satelitte imagery proof, here it is:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm
http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/ |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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 I thought you will find something really interesting, like images at least of Google Maps quality level and which source is different than US Gov-t dept (read information in reports carefully). The quality of UNOSAT's images absolutely awful but they are marked as Hi-Res images. Why?
There are many ground photos and videos that show destroyed (precisely - rendered inhabitable) buildings in Tskhinvali but none of them marked either as damaged or destroyed. There are videos from Tskhinvali that show entire street of damaged buildings but there are no entire streets of damaged buildings in this report. This report shows that there are almost no damaged buildings in the northern part of Tskhinvali however there are videos taken by Georgian soldiers whose fire into these buildings. The north part of Tskhivali should be severely damaged as there were Georgian tanks and Ossetian irregulars burned some of them (from Georgian sources), but according to UNOSAT analyzis there were little fight, almost no damaged buildings. Why?
Quote from UNOSAT:
| UNOSAT wrote: | | These maps have been produced or facilitated by UNOSAT from public sources |
But! These reports refer to satellite images which GLIDE identifiers is not existent in GLIDE database. Why?
Interesting analyzis of UNOSAT reports.
ivan-bunsha.livejournal.com/895.html
And for example
destroyed peacekeepers barracks: www.ljplus.ru/img4/k/r/krig42/IMG_0248.jpg
"analyzed" peacekeepers barracks: cs.ozerki.net/zap/img/peacekeepers-base.gif
Another example school ¹5 was severely damaged (only two scools 6 and 7 remained intact) but according to UNOSAT it undamaged.
Another one: photos.fotki.lv/photos/4/W0002321/000232045/000023204492_%23_3_%23_Atollos.jpg
Empty space was destroyed.
Now there are question questions. Is it unprofessional work? Was report made on purpose? Is it possible to adequately estimate level of damages of in the city where builing become unusable but roof still standing? Real source images weren't published. Why? Were these yellow and red boxes set somewhere inside US GD?
Moreover if you follow the links you will find videos. The videos show part of Gori that was "bombed". My favorite one with only one corner of house is burnt (several flats) and this one was photographed by Reuters as evidence of Gori bombing. Watch closer and you will see untouched windows in some buildings around. It is wonderful modern Georgian technology, their windows are stronger than steel and they don't break when the bomb falls near them.
Most likely there was munitions depot near Gori that was blasted and fragments of munitions landed on part of Gori. At least this is most viable explanation.
Just read different sources and use healthy criticizm. |
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gomer
WayToRussified
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 446
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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A former U.S. Secretary of Defense, Colin Powell, preferred to invade with overwhelming force. I think a minimum 5 to 1 ratio was mentioned ( U.S. military, 5 - other side military, 1 ). A higher ratio is even better. Another former U.S. Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, preferred to invade with the minimum amount of military needed to get the job done. Two different men, two different strategies. The concept of 'fair fight' seems to come from current U.S. 'politically correct' thinking in the civilian government. The military knows better than to 'fight fair'.
Countries can rationalize anything they do in the name of 'national defense'. If you've got thousands of nuclear warheads on thousands of missiles, you don't worry too much about what the rest of the world thinks of your actions. The 'button' is always there. As someone in the U.S government indicated, "We don't need permission from the U.N. to defend our national interests". I doubt if Russia asks for permission either. |
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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ender,
| Quote: | | I thought you will find something really interesting, like images at least of Google Maps quality level and which source is different than US Gov-t dept (read information in reports carefully). The quality of UNOSAT's images absolutely awful but they are marked as Hi-Res images. Why? |
UNOSAT's images look perfectly fine to me. Perhaps you require reading glasses?
By the way, I provided you CERN of Switzerland's link. Nothing to do with the USA.
UNOSAT is the UN Institute for Training and Research (UNITAR) Operational Satellite Applications Programme, implemented in co-operation with the UN Office for Project Services (UNOPS) and the European Organisation of High Energy Physics (CERN).
UNOSAT created an extended network of public and private partners, and collaborates with the majority of UN agencies, space agencies and several international initiatives active in satellite technologies field.
Looks like I've provided independent information and factual imagery, whilst you have provided us with, surprise surprise, Russian links/propaganda.
Sore loser.
gomer hit the nail on the head when he said:
| Quote: | | Countries can rationalize anything they do in the name of 'national defense'. |
South Ossetia and Abkhazia have nothing to do with Russian 'national defence'.
Russians could do well to remember that, whilst they analyse these images. |
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Ender
WayToRussified
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 479
Location: Urals
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Xela wrote: | | UNOSAT's images look perfectly fine to me. Perhaps you require reading glasses? By the way, I provided you CERN of Switzerland's link. Nothing to do with the USA. |
Did you read contents of report? Precisely source of images. Did you impressed by yellow and red boxes scattered over shitty quality black and white image? Do you see extremely big difference in detail and quality of what provided by UNOSAT and what you can see on Google Maps? Looking at the map is provided by UNOSAT is it possible to determine what building was damaged and what building was untouched? I don't think so.
UNOSAT is the UN Institute for Training and Research (UNITAR) Operational Satellite Applications Programme, implemented in co-operation with the UN Office for Project Services (UNOPS) and the European Organisation of High Energy Physics (CERN).
UNOSAT created an extended network of public and private partners, and collaborates with the majority of UN agencies, space agencies and several international initiatives active in satellite technologies field.
You forgot to continue: People-centred means that we operate keeping in sight the beneficiary needs at the end of the process.
IOW "someone pays to us and we create required maps for their purposes". Independent!!! 
| Xela wrote: | | Looks like I've provided independent information and factual imagery, whilst you have provided us with, surprise surprise, Russian links/propaganda. |
It looks like you ignored every question I asked about these maps. The links I provided is the comparsion betwen what Google Maps (independent) reports and what UNOSAT reports. People just put them together. Of course you don't see the difference because the one who need glasses it is you. I can gather all comparsions myself but it takes too much time, so I posted links on ready information. The numbers of damaged buildings and marks in these independent UNOSAT reports mutually exclusive. You can count yourself. The marks are set in the places where there are no houses. You can compare maps yourself.
You can do your own analysis, how accurate these reports but I guess disclaimer "We are independent and we are professionals" is enough for you. I'm independent also. Russian government doesn't pay me, I pay RG. Think, think, god gave brains to you for thinking, not for reading banners. |
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Paul Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Nationalist Russians talk about how much the USA is spending on the Military. Russia spends more % per capita than the USA. More on Health Care or Education. Now despite that their economy is starting to crack (MICEX is down by 50% from their highs) and country suffers from inflation 19% (despite GDP is not increasing that much), Putin is going to spend more money on the military.
After this increase, Russia will be spending as much on their military as they spend on their Education and Health. Which is interesting, because Russia's average life expectancy is decreasing.
I guess Putin has learned everything from GWB that is to invade other countries in order to deflect people from seeing the reality that Russia will face its first economic crisis it has and he will be blamed. But I am sure that he will blame Georgia, America, Chechnya, or even Meldelev.
Don't worry, Ukraine will collapse first and beg forgiveness from mother Russia. Putin will put that backstabbing slut Ms Tymshemko out on the street to earn her keep. She will side with anyone that she thinks has money and power. |
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Paul Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Xela wrote: | Ender,
| Quote: | | I thought you will find something really interesting, like images at least of Google Maps quality level and which source is different than US Gov-t dept (read information in reports carefully). The quality of UNOSAT's images absolutely awful but they are marked as Hi-Res images. Why? |
UNOSAT's images look perfectly fine to me. Perhaps you require reading glasses?
By the way, I provided you CERN of Switzerland's link. Nothing to do with the USA.
UNOSAT is the UN Institute for Training and Research (UNITAR) Operational Satellite Applications Programme, implemented in co-operation with the UN Office for Project Services (UNOPS) and the European Organisation of High Energy Physics (CERN).
UNOSAT created an extended network of public and private partners, and collaborates with the majority of UN agencies, space agencies and several international initiatives active in satellite technologies field.
Looks like I've provided independent information and factual imagery, whilst you have provided us with, surprise surprise, Russian links/propaganda.
Sore loser.
gomer hit the nail on the head when he said:
| Quote: | | Countries can rationalize anything they do in the name of 'national defense'. |
South Ossetia and Abkhazia have nothing to do with Russian 'national defence'.
Russians could do well to remember that, whilst they analyse these images. |
You should take your own advice and ignore that Nazi.
I am laughing LMAO watching the Russian stock market collapse and yet Putin finds more money to spend on the military. Economy might be in dire straights, but they need more weapons to wage war on something to cover that their tracks. Just like thieves do, they create diversion in order to get away with the money. |
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Paul Holmes
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1071
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| greg222 wrote: | | Paul Holmes wrote: | Russia was not considered the aggressor until they invaded Georgia and stayed. If they pushed Georgia out and left it that, then the west could not say anything. But why invade and why stay and why declare their independence? Wrong decision.
I think we have a battle of egos. |
I agree that recognising their independence was provocative. But, please, Russia would have been criticised regardless - reality makes little difference to what the West has been saying. How many times have you heard Georgia being labeled democratic over the past month? Even while the OSCE is releasing reports about significant violations during their May elections...
You might remember that Russia was already being criticized by the West during the Olympic opening ceremony. At that point their army hadn't moved outside of South Ossetia. As I said, it might be a legitimate criticism to say Russia's actions were disproportionate, but it's wrong to portray them as the aggressor and Georgia as the victim. The comments of the Czech President are spot on in my opinion.
Unfortunately, it seems it's easier for the Western media to interpret all events related to Russia through a "Russia=bad" filter. Moreover, it was clear during this conflict that Russia is light years behind the West, and also Georgia, in PR tactics: the manipulation of the media and reporting processes by Georgia was infinitely superior to Russia's. |
Again, it is not the USA that they are trying to convince, but the new economic powers of China and India. Their stupid actions had to be condemn or more troubles for India in Sri Lanka and Tibet.
Problem now is that Russia has been caught by India having its hands in Pakistan. |
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