Way to Russia Community and Forum

romdur · Lounge Lizard Joined: 17 Mar 2010 Posts: 189

Bulletguy,

I'm no expert, and haven't attempted any Russian road trip, but I hope I can help a little. To me, expat's replies have had a scornful tone, but I can guess where he's coming from: while I admire your moxie in planning this trip, at the same time I get the feeling that you've underestimated the challenges.

If you follow your original plan, I expect you'll have a great experience, and I look forward to reading how it all goes.

To put it simply (and this is my Personal Opinion), just because Russia west of the Urals is considered to be European Russia, make no mistake: Russia is absolutely not Europe!

Russia is an amazing country, and I love being there. It is a place with a lot of tough realities: most of the population lives in really extreme poverty, to a degree rarely seen in most of Europe. Most people are very nice, but the scope and intensity of criminality are breath-taking. In my understanding, crimes frequently happen in Russia that, if they happened anywhere in the West, would be in the headlines for months ... but in Russia, these events are either too commonplace, or the criminals control the newspapers.

Cops can be friendly, but it is well understood that their dealings with the public (especially foreigners) are income opportunities, and police forces often meld seamlessly with criminal organizations. An expatriate I know who has lived many years in Russia suffered a burglary by his local police (in the 1990s).

I guess you already know that the roads can be really bad (giving the impression of moon craters), and probably got some taste of this in Ukraine; I recommend making sure that your tires/suspension/frame are up a real pounding. It's very common to see cracked windshields in Russia; I suspect that this is often caused by pothole impacts that are so hard that they twist the unibody enough to stress the glass.

And some of the drivers there are fantastically aggressive: every man for himself, and the devil take the hindmost.

I've spoken with three people from Russia/Ukraine who felt that it's just plain dangerous for foreigners to go to rural areas without being accompanied by a native. My small experience of rural Ukraine was great, but in a way you go from the "police state" of the cities to an area where law enforcement is non-existent.

My main worry, based on what you've written, is whether you have wrapped your head around how lonely it would be to experience breakdown, theft, police shakedown, or illness in the middle of nowhere, inside Earth's largest country, when you don't know the language.

And by the way, expat wasn't exaggerating about language: In Russia's busiest international airport, I've had a really tough time getting any assistance in the English language. Multiply this 1000X in the countryside. At the very least, do learn the alphabet!

I don't intend to discourage: only, I hope you will prepare plans, how you will handle problems like the four I listed above, none of which is very improbable.

All this being said, I think that expat overstated the registration problem. There are two kinds of problems I know of connected with registration: first, the cops may hassle you, arrest you for a few hours, and try to extract money from you. Second, you can have trouble when leaving Russia, where you might have to pay a fine, and your ability to enter Russia in the future could be put at risk (if you don't intend another visit to Russia, this is a non-issue).
If you get a registration in Peterburg (as others suggested above), this should take care of the second problem, but of course cops might come after you (the first problem) for obviously staying in a place you're not registered. And complying with the law will not prevent them from demanding a fine.
By law, you're required to register whenever you spend 3 or more working days in one place. So if your plan is to keep moving, then theoretically, you don't need to register at all! To try and protect yourself, you can keep records (receipts or anything else official-looking that shows date/place) to substantiate your movements, showing that you didn't spend 3 working days in any one place.
If you do register your visa in St. Pete, you probably won't have any registration-related problems; at the worst, they will be limited to a few wasted hours and some money lost to "fines".

Best wishes, and please let us all know how your plans develop!

P.S. Andrew Meier's "Black Earth" (2004) is a fascinating read, and offers a picture of Russia in the new millenium. I highly recommend!

darthvader · WayToRussified Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 427

A good read this thread. And, some great advice all round. Who gives a stuff if one gets a little offended. Expat for example is just trying to help.

Hope your trip is a massive success though, Bulletguy!

Nice post, romdur.

This book, Andrew Meier's "Black Earth" (2004). Like reading books on Russia since the fall of Communism. Wonder if there are any more current books on Russia's social, cultural, economic and political situation/changes - from the Moscow/ST Petes, to the provinces? Certainly is a vast nation under rapid flux. Seems to be a lot of 1990s' and early Putin reading material only.

DITTRICH · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject:

I think romdur's post is a little harsh and I don't detect that the "important" information is first hand information. He doesn't speak Russian, apparently.

The bits about criminality, police and language problems are overstated.

Firstly, criminality: most of which involves locals vs locals - they're too busy making real money to bother with foreigners.

Anything involving foreigners is a real pain for the police to deal with. Witness, I've been stopped by radar guns, committed traffic violations... and got away with a warning/friendly advice on all occasions - even when I got "done" for overtaking during roadworks in the middle of nowhere on my own miles from anywhere. No-one has ever confiscated my license (international or russian) or fined me. They did on accasions get a little annoyed but that was that.

And, I've travelled and stayed in some pretty out of the way places from Primorski Krai in the east to a large chunk of Western Russia. Yes, the standards of law are different and the law works in a different way, but the country is still there doing okay for itself.

Language: outside of moscow english isn't really spoken but people who do speak it can be found.

The vast majority of people you are likely to meet will be helpful and friendly - and in this respect russia is no different from any other country.

Yes, if you park your camper van in the middle of nowhere then that is a risk - in any country. You have to park up at villages or settlements where there are people or know tourist camping spots. There isn't really any good way to find out where to camp - the locals just know and its word of mouth. If you borrow a russian speaking friend to help your googling...
Les

DITTRICH · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject:

http://www.naseliger.ru/_SilverLake.htm

an example (i've been there)

http://www.nwrussia.ru/ideatype/campings

another website...

use google translation tools or better borrow a russian speaker to help...

Just type camping and translate it and copypaste into google and search
You'll have to do alot of research first.

Les

chrisrein · Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject:

TomTom does already have maps for Eastern Europe including Russia for a couple of years. But the older version I had was not that accurate but useful. (it said often while driving on a big road that we were driving 100 meters beside the road in the fields)

The TomTom twice tried to send me over a sandroad. The first time I thought this was not a problem for me, but I ended up in the mud and had to find a farmer to help me with his tractor. The second time I was smarter and turned around.

So one tip: also carry a good map of Russia, besides the satnav!

Hopefully the latest maps will be more accurate, but I have not tested it yet.

Mustbcrackers · Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject:

Thought I'd posted this yesterday but it still hasn't appeared so ...

We're planning a similar trip to Bulletguy this summer so the exchanges have been fascinating to read. Motorhome from UK to the Urals!

We're setting off from the UK for a seven week trip in mid-August, entering Russia from Finland (after ferrying from Tallinn to Helsinki). Our itineraray then is St P. - Moscow - Yekatarinberg - Sochi - Kiev and home.

We'll be using up every minute of the 30 day tourist visa on Russian soil so if anything goes wrong toward the end we could easily overstay our welcome!

I've read all the stuff about crime and police shakedowns and that is worrying - but there are people elsewhere who say things are much improved now and nothing at all like the 1990s when the USSR collapsed. Someone has to do it first and we're willing to have a go.

But I am doing lots of research and trying to work out the best way of dealing with things that might crop up. We will have breakdown insurance that will cover us as far as the Urals. I'm learning basic Russian at night class and with Teach Yourself books and CD.

I've seen satnav with maps around St P. and Moscow (Garmin I think but need to check again - won't buy yet in case a later version comes out before departure.)

Other worries - where to dump grey water and night soil. Where to fill up the fresh washing water tank. Will cook with and drink only bottled water.

Want to take a laptop to stay in touch but not sure there will be any wireless hot spots outside St P. and Moscow. Anybody know?

Bulletguy - stay in touch, we need to compare notes.

Cheers
MBC

DITTRICH · Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:52 am Post subject:

Dear MBC

I've done 2 trips to Russia by car - once through Scandinavia and once through the Baltics. Based on your post, I would advise as follows:-

1 Put some slack into your timetable for unexpected events. In Russia, on such a long journey there is ample scope for the unexpected. Therefore to depend on hitting every deadline is dangerous as you might overstay your visa and extending a tourist visa is *impossible* which means I've never heard of anyone managing to do it.
2 Maps: good road maps 1:200,000 can be purchased in Russia and there is a place on the internet where you can download free scans of alot of them but i forget exactly where. better though to buy paper maps in Stanfords in London - not cheap - but your best option.
3 Learning Russian is good - learn the alphabet first - Russian is easy to pronounce and you will then be able to understand *road signs*.
4 The police thing is overstated and you don't have anything to worry about provided your papers are in order. I've been stopped many times and never had to part with a rouble. Mind I can speak Russian and this eases the situation considerably.
5 Breakdown insurance as far as the Urals! Who may I ask sold this to you? As motorhomes are rare in Russia, may I suggest taking a small amount of consumables / spares in case of problems. Obviously not the kitchen sink but...
6 Let us know if you manage to get a green card to cover russia. They are part of the scheme now but the UK insurers are slow to react. Directline haven't figured it out yet (as of last week when I asked).
7 You will have to budget time to extend the temporary import certificate in StP - budget a whole day to do this even though with luck it might just be 3 hours. And remember you need to have your visa registered in order to do this. You will need to book into a hotel in order to do the extension beyond 10 working days quickly even though it will cost it will save time. See the posts on temporary import certificqtes.
8 Not sure about wifi but there will be internet cafes in alot of smaller towns but you might have to look - again taking time.
9 dumping grey water - not a problem - just do where and when no-one else is around. Russians haven't quite got the hang of th enviromental thing and don't carry their rubbish home from the forest or wilderness - they burn it or dump it.#
10 poo - well if I'm honest - I'd take a shovel, dig a hole - as per 9 above. In the middle of nowhere.
11 Ekaterinburg is quite a goal to get there and back. Maybe on your first trip you could stay more to the west? Remember point 1. StP to Ekaterinburgh is around 2,600 kms one way. Realistically, you are not going to achieve more than 700kms per day (thats StP - Moscow). I think it would take around 4 days of solid driving to get to Ekaterinberg from the Finland border. Remember roads over there can be crap and even main motorways can deterioriate into crap roads at a moments notice. It simply isn't possible to blast along all the way without risking leaving your suspension in a pothole somewhere.
chrisrein knows his stuff so take heed of his advice and other posts.
Good luck with your trip

Les

romdur · Lounge Lizard Joined: 17 Mar 2010 Posts: 189

@ Mustbcrackers,

To amplify what Dittrich posted about providing slack in your schedule -- the sources I have read say that overstaying the visa is a serious problem. It is a mistake to depend on tolerance: if a visa lapses on the 14th, and a traveler reaches passport control at 1 AM on the 15th, the unsmiling passport control officer is under no obligation to be your friend.

According to my reading (haven't personally run into this, and am real careful to avoid it), the consequences of overstaying include:

1) traveler will not be allowed to leave Russian Federation at that time - you would literally be prevented from going home!

2) traveler must apply for an exit visa, which can take days or weeks (I don't know where this application must be made... if you are expecting to leave the Russian Federation at some remote frontier outpost, I suppose you might need to travel far to reach an office where application may be made for the exit visa)

3) during the time waiting for the exit visa, the traveler is in a rather awkward status - stuck in Russia, but without official permission to be there

4) significant fines/fees may be incurred

5) traveler's ability to get a visa in the future will be prejudiced (a non-issue, if you only want to make the one visit)

And as Dittrich said (as well as every other source I have seen), extending a tourist visa is just not possible.

"If ever the day should come when you are faced with the choice of overstaying, or doing something else, choose the alternative. It cannot be put too strongly. Whatever you do, don't overstay the visa."

Mustbcrackers · Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject:

The breakdown cover I've found that reaches as far as the Urals is provided by RAC: http://www.rac.co.uk/euro-breakdown/countries-covered.htm

We used this last year in Italy and the way it works is this:

1. You break down
2. You call the RAC UK control centre (we did it on a mobile) and give your details and the problem
3. They contact their country partner (Italy Assist in Italy) who call you back (English speaking) and discuss the problem and your location.
4. They then send someone out to you from their local operation - either an employed operative or a local agent.
5. The operative sorts out the problem (free) or tows you to a garage.
6. They fix the problem and you sign the paperwork and you pay them locally for any parts and labour, but not for the recovery.

Worked fine in Italy. Luckily the home of Fiat and ours is a Fiat Ducatto base chassis that had lost 5th gear.

MBC (Harry)

DITTRICH · Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:06 am Post subject:

Thanks for the reply Harry - I'd never heard of anyone getting breakdown cover for Russia through a european company before.
Build some slack into your schedule and you'll be okay. In 2005 I was rear ended in Moscow - it delayed me a week! Luckily I'd built a week's slack into my itinerary just in case. I organised the insurance claim and car repair in 5 working days and crossed the border on the next day - the last day my visa was valid for (IIRC).
Les

Bulletguy · Frequent Guest Joined: 21 Mar 2009 Posts: 16

For now i have shortened my proposed tour out to Russia and looking at entering Belarus instead.

However, vehicle insurance is the sticking point. My company will only cover travelling in UK and EU countries, the only non-EU country they will cover is Switzerland. No surprise there as that country is more civilised than my own!

I've read all posts on here and many have some useful information. Yes i realise where i am wanting to go has it's risks and a vehicle breakdown out in the middle of nowhere would concern me far more than lack of language. I have been in rural areas of east Poland and Ukraine where nobody even understood simple words like "yes" or "no" but i still muddled through and even managed to buy meals simply by pointing at photographs!

People stood staring long and hard at my van with this weird number plate and a steering wheel on the wrong side. They looked at me as though i had just landed from some inter-galactic planet!

I could make life a lot easier and simply go off to Spain.....but all 'brits' go to Spain and in summer the place must be almost as bad as being in bloody Blackpool!

Bulletguy · Frequent Guest Joined: 21 Mar 2009 Posts: 16

I've just had my first 'pm' message sent off this forum.

A link to a porno site!! Rolling Eyes

Tut tut.....such western decadence! Shame on you

romdur · Lounge Lizard Joined: 17 Mar 2010 Posts: 189

Bulletguy,

Got the same PM :\

I do hope you will make it to Russia... if not on this trip, then in the future. I don't intend to discourage anyone in my replies, it's only that I have a vivid imagination for how things can go "pear-shaped" in a country that's already "sideways."

Accordingly, I recommend careful preparation.

Just for fun, a note about "People ... staring long and hard at my van with ... a steering wheel on the wrong side." It's a big business in Russia to import used cars from Japan. On my first trip, I met a man from Naberezhneye Chelny (not far from Kazan) who had made the vast train trip out to Vladivostok to buy a Honda, and then drove it back home. So right-hand steering vehicles aren't as unusual in Russia, as one might expect.

Bulletguy · Frequent Guest Joined: 21 Mar 2009 Posts: 16

romdur · Lounge Lizard Joined: 17 Mar 2010 Posts: 189

Not unlike Russia... they SAY they want to encourage tourism, and surely this would be of economic benefit. But they love to keep their Soviet-style system of dealing with foreigners who want to travel there!

In the West (especially, here in America) there has been a massive shift toward the "service economy," in which it is understood that success depends on the customer being happy with their experience. It has gone so far as to affect how bureaucracy functions - dealing with U.S. revenue officials about taxes is quite friendly and civilized, compared to 30 years ago.

But in many parts of the former Communist world, it sometimes seems that success at one's job is a question of giving ordinary people as much grief as one can.

Especially, I have seen (although I see this less each year) women in their 60s or so working some kind of low-level official job, who look like they came directly out of pictures or films about the Soviet era, and whose attitude does not seem to have changed in the slightest. They seem to delight in telling people "you are not allowed to do this!" or giving a discouraging response when asked for help.

All this being said, one of the things that makes this part of the world fascinating to me, is that in some ways it still lives in another time. The rough with the smooth...

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