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Camrade
VIP
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 516
Location: Санкт-Петербург
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 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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2markhagelin
do you think that EU need new Georgia?
I don't think so 
Georgia is an island of corruption.... They can't even solve a problem in Pankiss which is occupied by a terrorists.
Georgian government just want to show their attitude to americans and europeans.. |
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joera
Frequent Guest
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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ok i didn't read all. but i like to give my opinion.
what i find most dangerous and the theme that is prevailing in western rhetoric is that Ukraine is divided in an ukrainian and a russian part.
Note that what a lot of people today call ukraine is only half of the country. The rest would be russians. Now is this really true?
Or is it simply convenient so not need to adress the opinions and wishes of all people in the east and south.
I think most important is to remember that the Ukraine is both its western, eastern and southern parts. Those who claim to be the only true ukrainians steer towards the break up of the country. Of course they will not break up the country themselves, they will only ignore, insult and bully the other parts, who on their turn will decide to break away. I believe the data to note is the 9th of january. In the referendum for increased atonomy of the donetsk region the people of the east will finally find their way to express their voice.
I will be the first to admit that the national project of the ukraine is build on a swamp. Russia and ukraine are linked culturally, literally, beyond our comprehension. the Ukraine also not always has been just the little brother. especially when it comes to the pravoslavic tradition there have been centuries in which Kiev was a lot more powerful than Moscow.
Those people that try to suggest that under Yanukovich the Ukraine will become a satelite state of Russia, know little of the real powergames fought between Kiev, Minsk and Moscow.
Yes Yanukovich represents a bussiness elite that has its origins in the privatization of the energymarket, like the russian style oligarchs. and yes this elite also has bussiness in Russia and yes the have a pravoslavic orientated television channel operating from Russia broadcasting for the Ukraine.
Russia however ( what we westerners find hard to understand) is a pluralist country. There are many central, regional, bussiness, millitary etc.. clans who all cooperate or fight for power. The idea of Putin as an omnipotent leader is only create by western journalists to mask their ignorance and misunderstanding of the real games played.
Yanukovich clan yes is more affiliated to Russia than maybe Yushenko. But that does not mean he is or wants to be Putin's puppet.
about the elections:
this links the website of the british helsinki human rights group. I find their article quite interesting.
Many people speek about rescuing democracy.
However when the election has been declared a fraud, you can not simply anounce the 'opposition' leader as the winner. In essence that is a very undemocratic thing to do. Yushenko be many is proclaimed leader of the country. imho undemocratically, but rather trough a populist how to say 'bunt'
Remember that during the first preliminary session of the parliament after the election, yushenko placed his hand on the bible to be sworn into the presidency. It was the chairman of the parliament that quickly abolished this meeting and saved yushenko from making a big mistake. Note, he was ready to proclaim himself president without any viable result of an election.
Now who calls that democracy?
In the same line go all the proclamations of different city councils supporting Yushenko. Most hilarious was the proclamation of yushenko as president by the European party of the people. imagine me, a dutch guy, proclaiming Nader president of the USA .
Furthermore the assembled people in Kiev frightened and or blocked neutral or yanukovich supporting parlementarians from being present at the political process.
Now who calls that democracy?
remember all those rumors about state military troops coming to subdue the manifestations? the russian paramilitary unites that were supposedly flown into Kiev. None of those insinuative rumors have been followed up by any verifyable action. maybe it was just opposition rhetoric?
Interesting is to understand the split in the country. Who are those people wearing orange flags? Industry and jobs are in the east. The west has the greater cities meaning tourism, universities, international trade and.... unemployment. What is it that these bussinessmen, students and unemployed city dwellers want. Yes.. the american (or in this case european) dream. There hopes of a better personal future are based on this. They believe access to the european market will increase their possibilities.
I think however when in afew decades an objective assesment will be made of the economy of countries joing the eu, we will see that within these countries the discrepancy between the wealty and poor will only have grown. Joining an empire gives benefit to a few, the same brokers of that move, and a few lucky or shrewd ones. In general however the people will be exploited as a relatively cheap labor force for international capital. Capital that is made will not be invested back into the lives of these people but dissapear on Swiss bank accounts.
People in the eastern part of the Ukraine work in the industry. Theie lives are far from easy and yes they are exploited. But some of that money flows back into the community. These people feel that although life maybe ain't fair, they have security., their jobs. their dream is not to become a successfull international bussineesman but to raise a family as good as they can. These people have a hard time respecting those people who stand on the squares of Kiev, drinking, waving flags. Their everyday hard work keeps the ukrainian economy alive. What are those orange revulutionaries really doing for the Ukraine they think?
The workingclass heroes voices will be heared on the 9th of january.
*
wow i got carried away a little here,... |
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markhagelin
Talk Show Host
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 208
Location: Maine, USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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joera
You missed a point.
Somebody poisoned Yuschcheno. I don't think he did it to himself or one of his close friends did it either.
His views upset someone's agenda, and they felt they only way to silence it would be to use dioxin to kill him.
Mark |
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joera
Frequent Guest
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:17 am Post subject: |
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poisened? really?
how could I have missed that?
seriously, yes he 's poisoned.
but does that make him a good person? a hero? maybe even a martyr? (uh almost)
please understand i don't mind the guy becoming president. I just hope the country won't break up. And it will when no one listens to the people that do not support Yushenko. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| It's all a sham. Both candidates are virtually the same. Ukrainians have to wake up and realize that neither one is a "good guy." |
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