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60th Anniversary of Russia's WWII Victory Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject: I can't even describe how astonished I am reading this posts. Only voteks' posts are thoughtful and reasonable. Mark sounds like a troll. I can't believe people, even Russians, can post such incredulous posts. Oh wait, I guess it can be understood considering its people were brainwashed for over 60 years. I will say this for the last time, folks. The Communist and Soviet propaganda machine destroyed your country of Russia. The after effects are illustrated as time went on. This is not an "'American chest-beating' capitalism is better" rant. I am not talking about capitalism or western economics. I am talking about a system that drained Russia of it's potential resources and like all totalitarian regimes, it has a way of tumbling - it's just a matter of time. The ironic thing is that China was wise to monitor its government deterioration by grasping control of the commercial development of its country. Instead of divising or planning a system of control of economic policy like China did, Russia decided to rob its people of potential by having government officials and slimey entrepreneurs (later known as oligarchs) get rich. They were not true reforms. So, after sixty years of totalitarian governing, Russia's government to date has also done nothing to deserve praise. Vic et al., are you so devoid of character and principles, that you find it acceptable to praise Soviet strength just because they were fortunate to impede Nazi troops on Russian soil? That's a blatant disregard for government wrongs (i.e. excusing) so you can hang onto nationalistic pride. What a shame. No wonder Russia doesn't export anything of note except oil while China exports every type of electronics under the sun. Russians should be more demanding and expecting of its government instead of feeling content because, in their past history, they managed to avoid being taken over by the Reich. At least, the U.S. has a large segment of the population that is highly critical of Bush and American policies. I digress, though. I see no more reason to post on the subject. I agree with your posts, Vorteks. You're a smart guy. *thumbs up*
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:12 am    Post subject: Quote: Yeah yeah Stalin did this and that but he made Russia a great and powerful country.. LOL
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:17 am    Post subject: Cyndy, what provokes you to post your ignorance so often here? Every time you disagree with a poster's point, you post petty insults. Vortek posts a good point.
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Eryk Frequent Guest Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 42	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:08 am    Post subject: >>Natzism was perhaps the worst, most evil phenomenan that has ever >>existed. Errr, no. Bolshevism is and was the most evil phenomena[sic] that ever existed. It is a simple matter of numbers. Hitler killed around 6 million people, Stalin and Lenin combined over 30 million. The 'Reds' win the competition. >>I am surprised that so many of you seem to belittle this. When are some >>of you going to get off your high horse idealogy that every country and >>political regime is perfect? Of course not and you all know that. Exactly. All "...isms" suck because they are all ridiculous simplifications of existant reality. Racism, Facism, Sexism, Nationalism, Patriotism ....all the same. >>Why is it so terrible to recognize an important historical event that >>resulted in saving lives? Because it didn't. It was an event that delivered central Europe into the hands of Stalin and lead to genocidal campaigns of Russification (check the UN definition of "genocide" before you claim I am talking nonsense). The defeat of the third reich saved many Jews ....it equally condemned many Balts, Cossacks (Operation Keelhaul?), Romanians and others to death or half a century of horror. >>I just probably will never understand some of you on this forum who >>seem to be so cynical and intolerant of anything to do with patriotism >>and even more so- celebrating goodness. When a weak man is doing something he is ashamed of he always claims it is his "patriotic duty". <<< I don't claim to have coined that. Eryk
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Jutrzenkapolska VIP Joined: 16 Sep 2004 Posts: 534	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:37 am    Post subject: It's astounding how many passions WW2 stirs up considering it was 60 years ago. Anyone old enough to have remembered it well would be about 70 years old (if they are alive at all). You would think the Cold War would inspire more heated arguments considering it was closer to our time, after all it just ended a little over a decade ago, but no, guess not. But maybe it's not surprising.There are at least two people that aren't but might have been in my life, had the war never happened.
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:24 pm    Post subject: Jutrzenkapolska wrote: It's astounding how many passions WW2 stirs up considering it was 60 years ago. Anyone old enough to have remembered it well would be about 70 years old (if they are alive at all). Agatha - You would be suprised how many of them are still alive. In my family alone - Grandfather, Grandmother, Grandmother not to mention all of their sisters and brothers. The reason it stirs up passions is because there are certain people here (Eryk, Mogsfan) who get a kick out of dishonouring the memories of all those that died for our freedom while they themselves do not have a complete picture of what they are talking about, so they are using the classic "It is better where we are not" (Russian equivelant of "The grass is always greener on the other field") P.S., Agathos means 'good' as in the opposite of evil, right? Eryk - The reason that Waffen SS units should not be honoured is because you are wrong. They did not have the single goal to fight against the Soviet union! Please tell that to the THOUSANDS of LATVIAN Jews that were killed by the Waffen SS! I think them might disagree with you on that one, buddy. The concentration camps that were functioning inside Latvia (which were run by the Waffen SS) not only murdered Soviet soldiers/citizens, but they also took in many POW's and civilians from Poland, Austria, Germany and many other WESTERN European countries. Now tell me, what did Poland do to Latvia to deserve having its citizens gassed in Waffen SS concentration camps? The Waffen SS fought against anybody the Reich was fighting. Mogsfan and Eryk - You obviously have trouble understanding that nobody is brainwashed into believing that Stalin did NOT murder millions. You also seem to have trouble understanding that Victory over the Reich did not DOOM eastern europe, but SAVED it. Think about it, under S.Chancellor Adolf Hitler's doctrine, most of the people of eastern europe would have t be killed off because they were 'lesser species'. I have no clue where you get the figure of '6 million' about the ammount that Hitler killed. The Reich gassed and executed a little under 6 million JEWS ALONE, not to speak of Gypsies, Poles, political prisoners, Soviet CIVILIANS (that were captured in occupied territory - women and children) There were NO LESS than 7 Million if you count that. So, in 4 years Adolf Hitler killed more than 7 million, keep in mind, he did not 'run out' of people to kill, he was stopped. Stalin killed 20 million in 30+ years, so Hitler wins out on this. (Not that it matters really, I just want to prove that you have no clue what you are talking about) Stalin is not the reason that Russia became great but without him the war would have been lost...and you would not be sitting in front of your computer writting complete bull right now. The best option (if we could go back and change history) would be either if: 1) The Provisional Government of 1918 was not taken down by the Bolsheviks, in this case, Russia would have had a system similar to that of the United Kingdom. These guys were on the right track and they would have been able to implement reforms to make Russia a superpower but without all of the casualties. (In reality - the Provisional governemnt is government that recieved power when the Tsar stepped down, they hit below the belt by the bolsheviks after removing the Tsar, so in reality, the Bolsheviks did not take down the Tsar, they took down the guys that removed the Tsar due to popular demand and then took credit for it) 2) If Lenin would not have died the result would have been similar, in this case, the government would resemble the People's Republic of China as it is now. Lenin started implementing economical (НЭП - New Economical Politics) and social reforms. Unfortunately, shortly after these reforms were impemented (and started to take shape) Lenin died due to an assasination attempt and Stalin took his place. Stalin had his own reforms in mind, he did make Russia a superpower, but it took a)more time b)more casualties and it still did not give the best possible outcome. So in fact, Stalin did make Russia a superpower, but he cannot take credit for it because almost any other option would have been better than him. The only thing worse would have been if after Lenin a very uncharismatic leader came to power and the Soviet Union fell apart before WWII, in which case we would not be here right now at all. Cindy - My point exactly. Why can't people just understand the meaning of this day and stop finding excuses to make it less-meaningfull?
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: I know what I'm talking about, Vic, but you have reading comprehension problems. I never took issue with Russians fighting for their lives, fighting off the Nazis etc. Re-read my posts! I am at odds at your chest-thumping "We should celebrate our WW2 victory" propaganda. Just because Stalin was the dictator of the Soviet before and after WW2 does not mean he was great. It doesn't mean he was NEEDED for Russians to persevere, either. I have read similar posts from your ilk in the MasterRussian forum. But, there are individuals there that disagree with them and so, I will assume, will disagree with you as well. You sound like a bloody fool saying I don't know what I'm talking about when you can't even grasp the perspective I am presenting you. By no means do I intend to dishonour Russians that fought. If that's how you interpret it, it is your own misunderstanding and you chose to read into it that way. If anything, Russians should feel deceived and betrayed for what their lives cost them. I don't usually present my points in a cryptic manner. I'm usually straight forward. How on earth do you conclude I don't know what I'm talking about when I told you Russians were not fighting for freedoms. They didn't obtain freedom at the end of WW2. They were, inadvertedly, fighting for Stalin and the Soviets, in the long run, whether they realized it or not. Stalin and his friends DID NOT care about his people, period. You don't kill millions of people for no reason and still care about your people. I know the arguments. The reasons for industrialization and traitors etc. BAH. What a lot of nonsense and propaganda. Russians like you should be ahamed of yourself for allowing yourself to be brainwashed sheep. Last edited by Mogsfan on Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:05 pm    Post subject: I can t believe there are still stalinists in Russia You claim that : Quote: Stalin is not the reason that Russia became great but without him the war would have been lost. This is a highly contestable assumption. Were bolchevics interested in eradicating the nazi threat rather than annexing new territories, Stalin would have declared war on Nazis in reaction of the invasion of Poland rather than agreeing to share the country one week before. This would have totally changed the balance of power, nazis becoming automaticly unable to progress on two fronts. It would also accessorily have saved millions of russian and european lives. The biggest murderer of russians was certainly Stalin, who was counting much more on his massive population reservoir than on technology or strategy to block nazis. http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/barbarossa.htm You claim that : Quote: You obviously have trouble understanding that nobody is brainwashed into believing that Stalin did NOT murder millions We would be interested to read a bit more on this attempt to rewrite history. If you mean that he didn t personally kill millions of people, then you are obviously mocking us, if you have another explaination, please develop your arguments... http://www.liberty-center.org/archive/photoGenocide.htm Last edited by vorteks on Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:15 pm    Post subject: Quote: We would be interested to read a bit more on this attempt to rewrite history. If you mean that he didn t personally kill millions of people, then you are obviously mocking us, if you have another explaination, please develop your arguments... vorteks, I think he acknowledges Stalin killed millions but I can't speak for him. The Russians I've encountered online who have similar views to him usually discount the severity or have other "historical excuses" to sugarcoat the murders. It is Western propaganda milking the numbers or painting a particular picture that isn't accurate etc. Or that Stalin had to in order for the Soviets to defeat the Nazis or whatever. I think it is disgraceful. The Soviet apologists acknowledge Stalin's wrongdoings but always have an excuse or some reasoning in order to portray him in a less ruthless light. The proof is not authentic or the evidence is doctored. Typical communistic propaganda....
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Quote: Mogsfan and Eryk - You obviously have trouble understanding that nobody is brainwashed into believing that Stalin did NOT murder millions. You also seem to have trouble understanding that Victory over the Reich did not DOOM eastern europe, but SAVED it. Sorry, one more reply. 'Just wanted to reply to this part. Vic, you are way too forgiving, my friend. I assume your point is "we got the lesser of two evils." SO?!? Big whippy do. You consider Eastern Europe saved. Tell that to the oppressed nations that the Soviet Union controlled. Tell that to most Eastern European nations that struggle economically and with corruption daily. I don't consider it 'saved.' You, do. Great.
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Eryk Frequent Guest Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 42	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: >>Eryk - The reason that Waffen SS units should not be honoured is >>because you are wrong. They did not have the single goal to fight >>against the Soviet union! Please tell that to the THOUSANDS of >>LATVIAN Jews that were killed by the Waffen SS! They were killed by GERMAN units of the Waffen SS. The various Baltic legions were never involved or implicated in the actions against Jews etc. and this was explicitly acknowledged at Neuremberg (i.e. even the USSR admitted that they were not complicit in genocide). There was a unit known as the Arjas Kommando who were involved in anti-Jewish activities but they were home grown nazis who operated independently of the SS and they only numbered a few hundred at most. I know the history of this subject backwards, if you want links proving everything I am asserting then I can easily get them for you. >>Now tell me, what did Poland do to Latvia to deserve having its citizens >>gassed in Waffen SS concentration camps? The Waffen SS fought >>against anybody the Reich was fighting. Nothing, but it is a straw man argument since the units tasked with such activities were German. Stop reading Soviet history books and study the Neuremberg papers instead. >>You obviously have trouble understanding that nobody is brainwashed >>into believing that Stalin did NOT murder millions. Good, then we agree. Stalin murdered millions and the victory of the Red Army facilitated some of that since he would otherwise have been kicked out of power and executed. The victory of the Red Army therefore led to mass murder of civilians. You want to 'celebrate' that?!? That doesn't mean a Nazi victory would have been desirable, it just means that both possible outcomes were 'evil' and evil should not be celebrated ...period. Eryk
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Dr-Fauste Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:18 pm    Post subject: Read the first part of this nationalistic thread. What a bunch of crap!!! Give respect to those who gave their lives to protect what little they have. Granted life under Stalin was not great, but they choose and they sacrificed their lives to preserve what little they have. You might not agree with their choice, but it was their choice to defend and did it with great bravery and courage. Even when the Russian soldiers entered Germany, they showed great restaint in comparison to the horrible acts that was done to them by the Nazis. Sorry this is an useless vulgar thread. I find the comments very insulting to these brave men.
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Vorteks - Read with your eyes, not with your @$$, I said that "You obviously have trouble understanding that nobody is brainwashed into believing that Stalin did NOT murder millions" If you actually read it, you will clearly see that I am responding to previous replies where anybody defending the Soviet Union is automatically "brainwashed" into believing that Stalin did not kill millions of people. To which I reply that EVERYBODY today knows that that was not the case, that he killed Millions. That HAS BEEN KNOWN for almost 50 years now, since Nikita Khruschev became Gen. Sec.!!! He CONDEMMED the actions of Stalin and made a full inquiry into the repressions, most of which was publicised!! For god's sake, atleast get your facts straight before claiming that other people are brainwashed! Keep in mind, with a mobilised army, in a defensive scenario, we were losing battle after battle with the Nazis. If we would have done as you said and 'declared war' on Hitler as soon as he invaded Poland, we would have been completely CRUSHED. This is undisputable. In 38-39 we did not have an army capable of opening a frong with Germany, much less winning in it. Also keep in mind that after Germany opened the second front with us, they were winning for a good two years, this is AFTER the reforms were already taking place. And you expected us to ATTACK Germany when our army has just STARTED modernising itself and you expect this army to give the superiour, well prepared German army a hard time with a second front? You must be joking, right? In this case, Hitler really would have won in his predicted 2 months. Mogsfan, Eryk - But we did get freedom. Granted it was not immediate, and it took 10 more years for Stalin to die, but after those ten years we did eventually get the freedom. The alternative to this kind of freedom would be Nazi concentration camps...hmmm, which would you choose? Knowing you - probably the concentration camps, right? Now, I am going to tell you this one more time since you obviously not noticed it the previous 3 times that I posted this: The soldiers were fighting for their people, not Stalin, not the party Got it? I even made the text bold so you would notice. The-families-of-these-soldiers-were-being-rounded-up-and-taken-to-nazi-concentration-camps-or-just-killed-on-the-spot. These-soldiers-killed-the-nazi-scum-that-was-killing-their-people, hence they were FIGHTING FOR THEIR PEOPLE. The fact that Stalin did not really care about his people has no effect on that statement. The fact that he was the commander and chief of the Red Army does not make the soldiers fight 'for him'. First off, they were fighting for their families. Also, I do not think that he did not care about his people, in his mind, he might have, but he was mentally unstable, which is the reason that he should not have come into power in the first place. I think that his brutality did contribute to the victory. I will not go into 'but if' and 'what if' discussions. What happened, happened. You cannot say for sure what would have been if it was not Stalin at the helm, if it was Trotsky or anybody else. If you do start such a discussion, you are making guesstimates, nothing more. I already stated my two scenarios, which I THINK would have led to a better outcome. What is done is done. We suffered severe casualties from the Nazi's and from Stalin, we won the war, if it would have been someone else instead of Stalin, would we have won? Would the immediate aftermath be different? I dont know. NEITHER DO YOU. I do not claim that the numbers have been tampered with, I fully accept 20 million, give or take one million. I do not support Stalin's actions either, but I think that any discussions on this topic are counter-productive. We all know what happened, and what now? Mogsfan - I do not consider it a choice between the "lesser of the two evils", I consider it a choice between LIFE or DEATH. At the time being, we only had an Evil (Stalin) and a greater Evil (Hitler), by choosing Stalin, you get opressed for 10 years and have a chance of getting executed, by choosing Hitler, you die. I don't know about you, but I think that pretty much constitutes 'saved'. Keep in mind, at the time there were NO OTHER OPTIONS. So what would you have propose? Go with Hitler and die? Keep in mind, you have no other options. About the Nuremburg trials - These trials were bullshit. Please tell me why all of the physisists and other scientists were let off the hook and invited to help out one of the victors? The Nuremburg trials were a joke, unfortunately, a political show. So unless you can prove to me that the Waffen SS did not kill a single Latvian Jew or a single western european citizen (which they were ordered to do by Berlin), there is no reason to believe otherwise. Vic Last edited by Vic on Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Eryk wrote: Good, then we agree. Stalin murdered millions and the victory of the Red Army facilitated some of that since he would otherwise have been kicked out of power and executed. The victory of the Red Army therefore led to mass murder of civilians. You want to 'celebrate' that?!? That doesn't mean a Nazi victory would have been desirable, it just means that both possible outcomes were 'evil' and evil should not be celebrated ...period. Eryk The possible outcomes were 'evil later leading to good' and 'death'. So yes indeed, I do think that we should celebrate that.
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: Good to find out you are not revisionist, Vic. The Red Army was not more ready in 1941 than in 1939, since Stalin didn t believe nazis would dare to attack Russia. The evidence? Trainloads of iron ore left Russia bound for Germany even hours before the invasion. In 1939, nazis would not have been able to gather 500,000 fins, 150,000 rumanians and 65,000 Norwegians against USSR. They would have needed to dillute their forces between two fronts, forbidding Blitzkrieg strategies. The blocus of german imports would have been effective. You would have got the support of polish armies in keeping nazis abroad. You would have also encouraged other slavic countries to rebel rather than cooperating. In brief, it would have allowed collective offensive strategies rather than separated defensive ones. Last edited by vorteks on Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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