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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I missed out on alot of this debate and it is a pity.
Here both E and Mogs are right - first time for everything.
Yes, the Russian Goverment pretty much did create the oligarhs, inadevrainly though and then did nothing to stop them from getting more and more money and power. This is irrelevant when speaking of Putin for one big reason - the Russian Goverment of the 1990's is NOT The Russian Goverment of the 2000's (Under Putin). So blaming Putin and the government for the oligarhs is very pointless because it is almost a different country since then.
Vic |
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Only
Frequent Guest
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Mogsfan, next time you have a bit of time, read this, please:
http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/97-99/foursov.pdf
It's longish, English is a bit faulty and the typist sucked, but none the less - this work won its author a NATO fellowship in 1999, and the points made are clear enough.
The rest of my long, eloquently sarcastic and nicely looped post got eaten by browser bug, sadly. I'll put you down next time, if you don't mind.
Cheers,
O. (not E at all!) |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Inadvertedly? Vic, the entire argument centered around the idea that it was virtually by design. The Yeltsin government needed money and one of the main reasons he was a stooge was because he relied on the corrupt IMF for loans and loan forgiveness. I believe that the oligarchs were a way to not only finance his government and campaigns but to also cushion the reliance on government money. Why would Russia allow such "deals?" in the first place? Do you think that they are that stupid and ignorant? I know about all the arguments; that they were in a rush to secure IMF assistance and realize their demands. But, I also think that Russia could have easily stressed that the reforms had to be done properly, democratically and present an atmosphere for free competition - which is definitely not done by creating these oligarchs and widening the income gaps. Imho, both the economic and political reforms were insincere and bogus.
I will reiterate with regards to Putin. He was handpicked by Yeltsin. He was not elected at first. Yeltsin et al. had major control over the media then and although the independent media had progessed to have a voice, I do think he had a lot of control and a lot of money (sources - the OLIGARCHS?!?  ). It's easier to mold politicians and political movements this way, eh? Too many other Russian politicians had ties to various oligarchs and this fact hurt most of the other political candidates, right? It was rather easy to create Putin's campaign and get him the presidency with all this in mind. The government may be different in appearance but in theory, there are too many similarities and the facts speak for themselves. If you don't believe me, look up the various scholars and experts for their opinions.
| Vic wrote: | Ok, I missed out on alot of this debate and it is a pity.
Here both E and Mogs are right - first time for everything.
Yes, the Russian Goverment pretty much did create the oligarhs, inadevrainly though and then did nothing to stop them from getting more and more money and power. This is irrelevant when speaking of Putin for one big reason - the Russian Goverment of the 1990's is NOT The Russian Goverment of the 2000's (Under Putin). So blaming Putin and the government for the oligarhs is very pointless because it is almost a different country since then.
Vic |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I will. But, as it has to (apparently) do with government or related institutions (world government, whatever), I will remain very skeptical and cynical. Whatever source you wish to see, I can also come up with them. There's many that support various points of my argument and suggestions. That aforementioned book for one. Professors of Russian and journalists abound who have views that are similar in idea to mine. I don't think visiting Russia is a prerequisite like some people here like to insist on. It would be ideal but if my view remained firm (after a visit), would there be a new excuse? My stay wasn't long enough? I wasn't born in Russia? Um...
I'm open to new ideas and suggestions but I haven't read or heard anything yet that is substantial that definitely refutes my suggestions or arguments.
I'll read your source (what are you arguing, though?) when I have time, though.
Best regards.
M
| Only wrote: | Mogsfan, next time you have a bit of time, read this, please:
http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/97-99/foursov.pdf
It's longish, English is a bit faulty and the typist sucked, but none the less - this work won its author a NATO fellowship in 1999, and the points made are clear enough.
The rest of my long, eloquently sarcastic and nicely looped post got eaten by browser bug, sadly. I'll put you down next time, if you don't mind.
Cheers,
O. (not E at all!) |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How about this?: You agree not to reply to my posts and I won't reply or respond to anything you post? Deal? |
Problem is Mogs is that you, like Paul Holmes and Cyndy don't seem to follow through on your online promises and proclimations. I distinctly remember a few posts back, as you always say, that you'll never make another poltical post again, and yet here you are.  Chances are you will respond to this one as well as future posts. So, be honest with yourself (if thats possible) and can the lies and admit that your additiced to polticial postings and theres nothing wrong with it. That seems to be the only reason why you are on this forum as are a majority of the postings you make are political. Especially when it comes to Putin.
I don't have any problems with you. You're just wierd, very defensive, you take things very personal and you've obiviosuly got a bug up your sleeve.
I didn't insult you at all, but you have insulted everyone that you disagree with: calling Russians (and anyone you happen to disagree with) brainwashed and unprincipled, calling the user Only stupid and dense when he actually didn't insult you at all (remember?) and lets repost what you said recently about me:
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You're pathetic. I was merely joking around based on the fact that we rarely agree. But, you really are an asshole. I didn't insult you. Violent paranoia? LOL Where on earth did you get that from?
You can't have a normal discussion without insulting someone except for your good pal, Vic. I was talking about profit sharing and dividing of shares based on a democratic method instead of the richest people obtaining everything. Only a prejudiced arrogant jerk like yourself would perceive it your way and mock it. |
Insulting people: check
Violent irrational behavior: check
Liar and full of crapola: check
Oh but wait: you're just being sarcastic right?!? You're joking LOL!
| Quote: | | You don't even know my views so any perception of them being bizarre is your own and your own only. |
We DO know your views Mogs. You've pratically posted them all over this forum. Reading some of your past posts, you've exhibited the same paranoid behavior towards anyone who disagrees with you. So you are calling the kettle black.
Perhaps you should go into the talk lounge and see your previous posts from months back. You'd be amazed. I did and I wasn't all that surprised really.
You seriously need to take a chill pill and relax Mogs. Might I sugest you watch this video that Mediashark posted. Especially watch the section "disscussing poltics": http://gorillamask.net/reallifevsinternet.shtml
Vic: c'mon in and join the fun! We need an actual Russian voice in this. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Only: I read some of that PDF. While writer obviously speaks english as a second language, I think it was pretty informative although its seemingly more a history paper.
But in my opinion it kinda glosses and outright ignores over how outside influences played a hand in creating the situation that its in. Particulary the 1998 Asian Financial crisis and the role of Western investors, the IMF and World Bank.
It apparently isn't a browser bug, because I was having the same problem too with this thread. Sometimes this forum goes on the blink, so i'm guessing thats it. I always and would judt hit the refresh button or log out and log in again. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| It has nothing to do with a browser. I assume WTR is constantly making changes (servers) and access to the forum temporarily is down. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Just to show the level of bias towards Putin in the western media and how they "hate his guts":
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Rick
Moderator
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 854
Location: Касабланка
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi Casey,
You are right. The posts were a bit too long for me to read all of them. Judging by what i see now it seems i should have issued a small warning already several posts ago.
Until 2 pm (Moscow time) they have a chance to clean up themselves. If not, then i will split the topic. Someone else may have a chance to revive it then.. |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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To the folks guilty of flaming or hurling insults--
Do us a small favour of deleting/editing those posts you feel that have offended someone. We don't like deleting posts, and sometimes it's hard to go through every single argument and choosing what to edit and/or delete.
Thanks. |
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Rick
Moderator
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 854
Location: Касабланка
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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We realise that there have been a lot of personal insults exchanged and flame baits being posted in this thread despite posting several warnings. The useful life of this thread seems to be over, so we will close the thread in this forum. however, you still can continue your debates in the unmoderated 'not relevant' section.
This is the link to the Putin thread in it...
http://www.waytorussia.net/TalkLounge/viewtopic.php?t=3140 |
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