Way to Russia Talk Lounge

vorteks · Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: Mikhaïl Khodorkovski

A few questions for russians about Mikhaïl Khodorkovski trial :

In your opinion, did he deserve a 9 years jail condemnation?

What do russians think about the Bush administration claiming to "keep a close eye" on the trial?

Doesn t this trial remind the bolchevik times when any political opposition to "mental hospitalisation"?

I have no opinion, since I don t know the man and his offenses, but here medias report this as an evidence of Putins dictatorship. I d like to get another voice soundfrom non western sources...

PS : last question, is there a special treatment for notorious or wealthy prisoners in modern Russia? (private jail...)

Camrade · Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject:

2vorteks

1 - no, he deserved 5 years - maximum...

2 - Bush administration "keeps close eye" on everything which can help them to influence on Russia... Khodorkovshy's trial is a great chance to involve into Russia's politics and to make Russia politically weaker.

3 - if there were bolshevik times, Khodorkovsky would have already been dead Smile

So this trial is just a half-political process which was intended to stop "oligarch revolution". Gossips about such revolution were in Russia before the prosecution of Yukos. But it's just my opinion (and not only mine Smile

), maybe the reason is different...

4 - there's a special treatment for wealthy prisoners, as far as I know... It's obvious that Khodorkovsky is in a special room with TV, refregerator and so on.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3436

comment on #2: I think Comrade is wrong regarding American interest and influence. I believe many polititians and businessman in the US are concerned that this trial (and many other trials, tax payment requests, etc.) are manifestations of Russia slowly sliding towards some form of dictatorship. Maybe it's not like North Korea or Cuba, but this case is a good indicator of how anyone who crosses a certain line can be put in jail without a jury or any real democratic process. And obviously America worries about this kind of development for the following reasons:
1) America gets more and more of Russia's oil and several large American companies invested billions in Russian oil industry. So, when Russia jails the CEO of the most successful oil company in history and introduces a variety of limits of oil exploration, re-nationalizes that company, that has to be of great concern to the US.
2) Russia still has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world.
3) Russia has great influence on the world affairs. It's one of the largest exporters of weapons in the world)
4) it's worrysome when the largest country on the planet turns a bit toward authocratic regime (virtually all TV stations were nationalized and many newspaper journalists are afraid to critisize people in power, tax agency slapped several large companies with tax backpayment violations, etc.) So, it seems that this is a partial reversal from the last few years of democratic reforms.

Camrade · Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject:

2MrSpice

"America worries" that sounds very uncencere. America is one of the most hypocritical countries in the world.
America cares only about their own wealth and safety and Russia for them is just like a crowd of crazy Ivans with nuclear weapons and Bush's government (like governments of previous american presidents) can't stand the situation when some country is dangerous and not under control (cause there's still no any systems of protection from nuclear missiles in the US). So if we happen to lose all our nuclear powers USA will imediately find a reason to start a military operation in Russia.
To tell the truth, USA don't care about russian political situation. If there were pure democracy in Russia (impossible thing, IMHO), nothing would have changed in their attitude cause RF is one of the most significant geopolitical rivals of the US however our influence is almost over by now.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3436

Comrade: And how do you that? Why are so sure that America does not care and that Americans don't care? I have lived in America for the last 11 years, and my experience based on what I read and expriece in the USA was completely different. Don't you think you are under the spell of anti-American reporting that is so popular in Russia and in European countries? I read russian news in Russian, so I know.

Camrade · Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject:

2MrSpice

WayToRussia · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:30 am Post subject:

To Vortex:

1) No, he didn't deserve it at all, I think. Not that I'm one of those people who go to the court to support Khodorkovsky, but I think the whole situation should have been dealt with in a different way (not this spectacle with the court etc.) both on the side of P and on the side of Kh.

2) I think they don't really care... Perhaps some lobby in the US connected to Yukos in some way and it's in their business interests to "support" Khodorkovsky

3) No, I don't think it's the evidence of Putin's dictatorship. To me, this is the evidence that those people can't negotiate. The state doesn't want to negotiate with business. The government doesn't want to negotiate with people who elected it. The business doesn't want to negotiate with the state...

4) I think there's only one jail that offers special services to wealthy citizens officially, but in most jails it's possible to get better conditions by bribing the guards.

Vic · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:27 am Post subject:

He completely deserved it. He will get 10 years because that is the maximum he can get for these types of charges. I wish it would be more.

This has nothing to do with any dictatorship - it is justice. Most Russian citizens support this decision. When you break the law, steal, and are told that "we will forget the past (the 90's privatizations) if you play fair from now on" and the idiot continues meddling in politics AND evading taxes - this is what he gets. He felt that he was immune from justice and he got what he deserved. I hope that Berezovsky and Nevzlin suffer the same fate.

The United States does not care, Bush does not like to piss off Putin and we can clearly see that he blows any issues against Russia down. As E said, the lawsuit in Texas was shot down. The U.S. does not want to get involved in any of this.

MrSpice has little clue of what he is talking about; that is exactly it, you have lived in the US for 11 years. You seem to have been brainwashed by the idea of "exporting freedom" (Terrorism) to other nations.

Vic

Camrade · Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:24 am Post subject:

2Vic

Mogsfan · WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490

Camrade · Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject:

2Mogsfan

what? i didn't get you, man

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Camrade, Mogs means that you are full of it if you know what I mean.

Mogsfan · WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490

Mogsfan · WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490

Camrade, what do you think of my suggestions and comments below?:
I agree with your #2, the first part, but not the 2nd or last part. I agree, Bush "keeps a close eye on everything" but I'm not so sure it is 'to make Russia politically weaker." As you know, Condolezza Rice made a statement about the United States' perceptions of Russia's prospects of democracy or their prognosis of Russian's current development of democracy. However you wish to say it, the U.S. has an idea of how Russia is, democratically speaking. All of us, may have differing or very similar opinions of what we think of that - i.e. we think the U.S. is not being very democratic themselves (based on various actions of theirs). But, I think the U.S. regards Russia's decision and action in the case to be a predictor of future international relations and overall behavior.

For e.g., it could be a predictor or used to anticipate relations with other countries and the U.S. Russia has sold a lot of weapons to other countries despite the Americans' objections. If the Americans are unhappy with Russia's decisions and actions on the case, the Americans may have grave concerns regarding future relations and have reason to keep a special eye on further behaviors etc. It's not necessarily a wish or desire to watch in order to make "Russia weaker."

What do you think of my analysis?

Anyway, I previously commented one analysis from the media (in this thread). It's about Putin selecting "certain criminals" based on their perceived threat to his regime and collaborative Russian politicians. The idea is that Putin does have an authoritative regime and that he does things based on perceived response. He may say something to elicit a positive response but in action, doesn't fully implement it or even in reality, intend to. In addition, he and his political cronies don't even believe in whatever policy we are talking about. There is no shortage of politicians who do this.