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vorteks
VIP
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 571
Location: European Union
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 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Ukraine won t join the E.U, it s already part of an economic union called FSU, baltc states weren t. The eastern countries that joined the E.U in 2004 were countries that didn t regard themselves as russian satellites even during soviets.
Lots of european investments are being made in Ukraine, especially in the agriculture, so the E.U will certainly develop free market agreements and a certain freedom of movement, like the agreements existing with Norway , but Ukraine is clearly defined culturally and historically as being part of the russian zone of influence (Kiev is the first russian capital town). |
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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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And Ukrainians owe Russians a cultural debt for kicking the asses of the Mongols and Turks and getting them out of slavery...
Anyhow, I'm just looking at (what I see as) the current political trends in Ukraine - almost over-the-top friendliness toward the US, poised to join NATO (I believe they are, correct me if I'm wrong), economic agreements galore with US/EU. Isn't Ukraine already part of the Common Economic Zone? George Soros and other American outfits, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Project for the New American Century (the most heinous bunch of war corporatists yet) was involved somehow, were pouring metric assloads of money into the elections.
I forget the other guy's name, but it seems like it boiled down to Yushchenko = New Guard, West-friendly, distancing from Russia while the other guy = Old Guard, Moscow-friendly, we're sticking with Russia.
I'm curious how it's going to go and I think it would be a mistake for Ukraine to abandon Russia for short-term gains by buddying up to NATO and the EU, because in the long run, Russia is going to re-emerge as a world power (history shows that they always do) and Ukraine will be losing out if they jumped ship to the West's "side." (For lack of a better term) |
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wavetossed
WayToRussified
Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Mogsfan, I live in the EU. I can assure you that there is zero support for inviting any CIS countries into the EU. In fact a lot of people are questioning whether or not Turkey should be allowed to join. The EU hasn't accepted Turkey as a candidate member yet.
During the discussions on the constitutional referendums many people brought up Turkey as a reason to vote no on the constitution. We want our governments to concentrate on making the internals of the EU work better and stop spending so much energy on expanding the union. It's big enough already after swallowing up 10 new members.
Don't know where you got the idea of political upheavals. I haven't seen anything like that in years. Of course, I live in England where we have been enjoying several years of economic growth since the slight dowturn around the time Enron and Worldcom came to light and we had some major telecom bankruptcies here like KPN-Qwest. But that was just a blip and since mid-2003 it became easy to find IT and telecoms jobs again.
By the way, the Baltic states are historically European countries, not part of the Soviet empire. That's why they were allowed to join the EU. On the other hand, the Ukraine is the very centre of the origin of the Russian people over a thousand years ago before they moved the centre of government north to Novgorod and then to Moskva. In any case, Yushchenko hasn't made any moves to distance Ukraine from Russia. In fact the first official act that he made as president was to fly to Moscow and meet with Putin. And Ukraine's prime minister, Timoshenko has also gone to Moscow to visit Putin. Russia is the biggest trading partner of Ukraine and there is nothing on the horizon to change that.
The CIS countries are steadily cementing their relationships with new agreements such as the one signed a couple of weeks ago in Georgia. And the central Asian cooperation agreements.
Let's face it, if you don't read Russian, then you simply don't know what is going on in Russia, because the Western media are squarely in the pockets of a few oligarchs who want westerners to believe that the CIS is a riskier market than it really is. Only companies and individuals who find their own direct news sources in Russia are able to escape this censorship. Such as Toyota who recently inked an agreement to build a new car factory near St. Petersburg. |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Wavetossed,
Business is business. Toyota is an outstanding company all over the world. Let's not pretend that the Japanese understand or are interested in Russia any more than their capitalistic and economic gains. Perhaps I misunderstand your point but please, Toyota as one example is in Russia for their own superior economic gains. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Mogs is actually correct that that Ukraine will someday join the EU. The EU is generally receptive to letting in Ukraine --provided that Ukraine fullfills the Copenhagen criteria:
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The EU and Nato have both said that Ukraine would need to do considerable work before it met the requirements for membership bids. While new members want to send a clear signal that a membership bid would be welcome, France and Germany seem in no hurry to open the door to another big country.
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Given how much in disaray France, Germany, and the EU is right now, I would take that as a grain of salt. Being close to Russia or not is largely irrelevant in Ukraines case. If so, Yushkenko would've conceded the election to the pro-Russian opponent and Ukraine wouldn'y be so aggressive in appealing to the west. CIS member? Yes, but so what? A CIS member in the EU? It can happen, there is a first time for everything.
I remember people were making the same incorrect assumptions about the Eastern Bloc countries and even the Balkans that they will not join the EU, and surprise surprise ten years later: Croatia has just been accepted as a formal applicant while Bosnia and Serbia are in line. The only roadblock for those countries and entry into the EU are whether or not they fork over war criminals. Turkey is not getting in because many Europeans do not consider Turkey a physical, and cultural part of Europe.
And again with this nonsense and censorship in Russia. If Russia is so censored, why can we and Russians log on to this forum and post whatever we want? Particulary highly sensitive political views? I was able to read western newspapers and access any website I wanted freely when I was in St. Pete. Try to do this in China, Saudi Arabia, or Iran where 95% of the internet is blocked.
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Wavetossed: Soldaty is not officially sanctioned by the Russian government from what I was able to research, so how accurate that show is to actual conditions in the Russian army is questionable. To that end, you can say its as accurate as JAG.
Only: Reading that article, it seems to me that the Russian military doesn't really want to change too much as it still wants to remain in an cold war mentality. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And Ukrainians owe Russians a cultural debt for kicking the asses of the Mongols and Turks and getting them out of slavery... |
Casey, imho, I don't think this really is vital to the economic realities. It's not a factor to business.
| Quote: | | Let's face it, if you don't read Russian, then you simply don't know what is going on in Russia, because the Western media are squarely in the pockets of a few oligarchs who want westerners to believe that the CIS is a riskier market than it really is. Only companies and individuals who find their own direct news sources in Russia are able to escape this censorship. Such as Toyota who recently inked an agreement to build a new car factory near St. Petersburg. |
I know about Toyota there. So what? Russia needs the EU or at least some sort of European partnership to compete. They desire investment, correct? Well, they need some credibility and need to establish some sort of "union" with some of the European nations. They could partner up with China but I think that would be detrimental to what they wish to accomplish. Besides, there are deep divisons there and China doesn't really concern itself with Russia and don't necessarily need them regarding trade. Russia's best bet economically is to utilize the EU although it needs major re-structuring and losing their own version of oligarchs and the incompetent controllers. In addition, the EU needs Russia, a healthy and economically prosperous Russia. That's just my opinion, though. If you disagree, it's no big deal. Everyone has their own thoughts on the matter.
| Quote: | | Turkey is not getting in because many Europeans do not consider Turkey a physical, and cultural part of Europe. |
I agree. |
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Daria
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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