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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Good post, as usual, Vic. And indeed, I use the search engine often. Sometimes I post redundant thread subjects, true, but it's usually because I'm looking for information geared toward my particular situation. But the search engine can provide hours of good advice for newbs like myself who haven't been to Russia yet.
And out of curiosity, Vic, what did Putin promise about Chechnya? That isn't a rhetorical question, I just don't know. Did he promise the end the war by a certain year? I understand that human rights abuses occur by Russian troops there, but when faced with an enemy as brutal and inhuman as Basayev and his Wahabi ilk, I can almost rationalize it.
And I'll dig up some more info on Khodorkovsky and spell out exactly why he was very much a law-breaker and deserved a stint in the pokey. I don't think 10 years is fair for simple tax evasion, but the guy is a gangster and he did obtain Yukos illegally under Boris "Drunky The Bear" Yeltsin's regime. More to come shortly. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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More lies by the nationalist, Vic. It's no point discussing these issues with liars and nationalist closeminded people, Mr. Spice. He is supposed to know what's going on, he lives there!
I suppose all the sources, reporters, analysts, political scientists and professors reporting on how Russia is implementing media centralisation is just making it up.
http://www.cdi.org/russia/238-1.cfm
http://www.ejc.nl/jr/emland/russia.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2005/russia-050603-rferl01.htm
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hj4m-Ze5rQsJ:www.ruj.ru/images/ROLE_OF_JOURNALISTS_UNION.ppt+is+the+media+(tv)+owned+by+the+state+in+russia%3F&hl=en
These aren't the best sources but I don't have time to go all over the internet to find the most ideal ones. They're sufficient for showing the inaccuracies of the claim that the government doesn't control the media at all.
A source which starts off supporting the view of non-state owned media but indicating changes and a transformation of state-controlled media:
http://www.eng.yabloko.ru/Forums/Main/posts/1364.html
f we are to talk of such a media magnate as the state, in today's Russia
its positions are strong mainly on television, with four of the six
national television channels owned partly or wholly by the state. Two
channels of the four are specialised. One is Kultura (or Culture), very
popular among intellectuals and known for its total absence of advertising,
and the other is Sport.
Obviously, there have been changes since these sources/reports but most likely, the changes are increasing government control of television and other media. I don't have time to post more sites and it doesn't matter anyway, the Putin fans will continue to be oblivious and refuse to consider anything but their own rhetoric.
These are Russians, too. They will give a certain slant for sure.
It is apparent though, that the Putin supporters are wrong. Just how wrong I am not sure.
The opportunity is there to control media and to gain control of it from oligarchs that they are responsible for initializing their wealth. They can simulataneously claim they are implementing justice by "taking" their wealth and assets. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| init6 wrote: | Good post, as usual, Vic. And indeed, I use the search engine often. Sometimes I post redundant thread subjects, true, but it's usually because I'm looking for information geared toward my particular situation. But the search engine can provide hours of good advice for newbs like myself who haven't been to Russia yet.
And out of curiosity, Vic, what did Putin promise about Chechnya? That isn't a rhetorical question, I just don't know. Did he promise the end the war by a certain year? I understand that human rights abuses occur by Russian troops there, but when faced with an enemy as brutal and inhuman as Basayev and his Wahabi ilk, I can almost rationalize it.
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Thank you.
Putin promised to eliminate Maskhadov, Basayev and either get the terrorists to surrender or have them captured/killed and to slowly return the republic into its constitutional state (self-government, not federally governed).
Maskhadov is dead, terrorists are surrendering and are being captured. There is still a ways to go but he never gave any figures as to 'when'. Most anti-terrorist operations are carried out by Chechen internal forces (MVD Chechenskoi Respubliki - which is pretty much Ramzan Kadyrov's clan and it's allies) So I guess that even there he has fulfulled his promise. He still has to solve corruption in the republic with the reconstruction funds and in Russia in general, but - one step at a time, he is making steady progress.
One thing you must understand about the Chechen republic is that there is a problem with the history of the people - clan warfare and revenge. You have feuds between families continue for over 100 years because 100 years ago someone stole someone's fiance or insulted someone's honour. You have to break the republic into little semi-autonomous regions (based on clans) for it to run smoothly...and even then you will still have them rival between each other.
| Quote: | | It is apparent though, that the Putin supporters are wrong. Just how wrong I am not sure. |
And, I assume that you consider yourself right? Solve your problems in Canada and then worry about what you think is wrong in other countries. This is called "American syndrome"...it looks contagious.
Vic
P.S. Vote Putin  |
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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the response, Vic. I have read quite a bit regarding the Chechen war, and Maskhadov was one of the few willing to negotiate with Moscow (after Dudayev). He didn't get along with Basayev, because Basayev is an insane Islamist freak. Could Chechnya be given its independence and the Crimean oil fields be rented back from them? If this would save hundreds of thousands of lives, it seems like a good solution to me. Obviously this won't happen, but I hope progress IS being made in Chechnya - I haven't seen a third party report any of this, though.
And Mogsfan, all the links you posted are opinions about why Putin is bad, as is the bulk of your post. While I DO respect your opinion, you are trying to put it forth as fact, which is incorrect. Especially if you're not familiar with Russian culture, etc. it is impossible to purport that what's good and what works in the West/North America is good for Russia. I haven't been to Russia yet so obviously I don't pretend to have the answers. I can only read as much as I can, talk to people and try to get a balanced perspective. It seems to me, however, that the real Putin-haters are the ones who want Russia entrenched with the IMF/World Bank, want to privatize everything and generally ruin the nation. Look at Latin America for a great example of "do what the US says" worked out. It didn't. If Putin is against irresponsible liberalization of the economy, he should be supported in this. And obviously the majority of Russians do. |
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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:45 am Post subject: |
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This is a review of Marshall I. Goldman's "The Piratization of Russia: Russian Reform Gone Awry." The author of the review is William Podmore (London):
| Quote: | The author gives us a good picture of the club of greedy criminals who have hijacked an entire country and wrecked it.
Their real money-spinner was grabbing pieces of Russia's immensely rich natural resources under the Loans for Shares [...]. For a fraction of their market value, the capitalists offered to look after the shares that the government put up as collateral for the loans, `managing' the state's stake in the energy companies in exchange for loans to the deficit-ridden state. This allowed them to claim that the nation's assets were not being sold off. In these corrupt insider deals, the Yeltsin government let the new capitalists take the companies from their directors, buying Yeltsin their support against the communists. The government could not repay the loans. The capitalists then sold the shares to themselves very cheaply, as repayment for the loans, through offshore companies.
The government used companies' book values as fixed in January 1992, before the great inflation, as the basis for the voucher auctions. Yeltsin's Deputy Prime Minister, Yegor Gaidar, freed prices in January 1992, causing 2500% inflation, wiping out workers' life savings, 70 million accounts in the state-owned Sberbank alone.
In November-December 1995, the government auctioned 12 of Russia's biggest companies. A tiny handful of banks ran the auctions, disqualified their rivals, excluded foreigners, bid in the auctions and won the bids. The capitalists admitted that they paid 40 times less than the enterprises were worth. In a closed auction run by his own bank, Uneksimbank, Vladimir Potanin (the deputy prime minister in charge of finance) bought, for just $170.1 million, Norilsk Nickel, the world's biggest producer of nickel and platinum, whose profits that year were $1.2 billion. The bank disqualified a rival bid of $350 million on a technicality. Potanin also bought oil companies at non-competitive prices and then sold the products at below market prices to trading companies he owned. He sold Gazprom, the natural gas monopoly, for $228 million, a thousandth of its value. Potanin sold 51% of the Sidanco oil company, for which he loaned the government $130 million. Then he bought the company for $130 million in the auction: in 1997, BP paid $571 million for just a 10% stake. Not surprisingly, Potanin's bank was the biggest winner from the Loans for Shares [...].
Capitalists created parasitic subsidiaries, whose profits they divided amongst themselves, not with the shareholders. They exploited arbitrage opportunities between low Russian prices and high world market prices, particularly in gas, oil, gold, platinum and other precious metals. They profited from the Central Bank's negative real interest rates, and speculated in currencies, mainly against the rouble. The capitalists' government took barely any taxes: in 1995-96, Gazprom paid $3.5 million tax on $2 billion earnings.
Anatoly Chubais, head of the State Privatization Committee, said of Russia's capitalists, "They steal and steal and steal. They are stealing absolutely everything and it is impossible to stop them." By 1999, 38% of Russia's people existed below the poverty line. 90% of the people endured worsening conditions, while the handful of arrogant capitalists made colossal profits by theft and corruption. If you want a picture of 'free enterprise' in action, here it is! |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
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To add to Casey's argument, This is selection from an article from Boris Kagarlitsky s a senior research fellow at the Institute for Comparative Political Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/imf/europe/russia.htm
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First of all I want to stress that it would be highly inappropriate to characterize IMF credits to Russia as "aid". These are credits for which Russia has to pay. Though these credits seem cheaper than those taken on the financial markets Russian government has to accept the conditions formulated by IMF ideologues and policy makers.
So far Russia has in general followed the instructions of the IMF and other international financial institutions. There have been minor disagreements, but basically the IMF has accepted and supported economic policies of the Russian government, while the Russian government has accepted the basic principles and advice of the IMF decision-makers. These decisions resulted in the current chaos which has not only led to the total collapse of the Russian economy, something unprecedented in peace time, but also is bringing the whole world economy closer to recession.
The collapse of the debt market in the first half of August came even though the International Monetary Fund had just begun payments to Russia from one of the largest economic “rescue ” packages in history. Along with the devaluation that followed, the crash marked the definitive failure of the key strategies that the IMF and major world governments had urged on Moscow throughout much of the 1990s.
The Russian government never discussed its economic programs with its own people or parliament. It was always the IMF to which all the basic documents were addressed. It was the IMF that systematically worked with the Russian elites, advised them and publicly supported them. The leaders of the Russian Central Bank who are personally responsible for the financial catastrophe in today's Russia have always enjoyed political support from the IMF experts who have stressed "professionalism" of their Russian colleagues.
Market mechanisms are paralyzed, and the Russian capitalist class (if there ever was such a thing) is bankrupt both politically and economically. The dominant mood is anger. No one has any trust in the official institutions. Most of support for Yeltsin is now external. This means that the International Monetary Fund and G7, which supported him, gave him money, and dictated his economic policies, are in crisis as well.
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So now you see why Putin was elected. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
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No, they are certainly not all opinions.
The facts of the sales of TV networks, media companies and the cancellation of TV-6 (or whatever it is called) is not opinion, imho. You don't pretend to have the answers and that's good because I gave facts and you are behaving like Vic now. I never said I have all the answers either. But, I have presented several sources and very rational perspectives to cause concern for Russians with regards to their government. These are not made up by me. They are not my personal perspectives or opinions. It's an accumulation of various sources.
But, don't mind, I'm getting tired of this. It's way too frustrating. If the responses arguing my posts were at least well thought out and considered the negatives of Putin's actions, then it would be a more interesting debate. Soon, I will delete the rest of my posts.
I'm skeptical of Putin. No, anyone who despises or is skeptical of Putin, doesn't want Russia "entrenched with the IMF." You need to read more, Casey.
Good day.
| init6 wrote: |
And Mogsfan, all the links you posted are opinions about why Putin is bad, as is the bulk of your post. While I DO respect your opinion, you are trying to put it forth as fact, which is incorrect. Especially if you're not familiar with Russian culture, etc. it is impossible to purport that what's good and what works in the West/North America is good for Russia. I haven't been to Russia yet so obviously I don't pretend to have the answers. I can only read as much as I can, talk to people and try to get a balanced perspective. It seems to me, however, that the real Putin-haters are the ones who want Russia entrenched with the IMF/World Bank, want to privatize everything and generally ruin the nation. Look at Latin America for a great example of "do what the US says" worked out. It didn't. If Putin is against irresponsible liberalization of the economy, he should be supported in this. And obviously the majority of Russians do. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| init6 wrote: | Thanks for the response, Vic. I have read quite a bit regarding the Chechen war, and Maskhadov was one of the few willing to negotiate with Moscow (after Dudayev). He didn't get along with Basayev, because Basayev is an insane Islamist freak. Could Chechnya be given its independence and the Crimean oil fields be rented back from them? If this would save hundreds of thousands of lives, it seems like a good solution to me. Obviously this won't happen, but I hope progress IS being made in Chechnya - I haven't seen a third party report any of this, though.
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Right, Dudayev and Mashadov were the only Chechens leaders who genuinely represents the Chechen people and who were reasonable and responsible enough to negociate with.
Instead of this they were killed and Putin placed a Puppet in the seat of the Chechen Presidency, as a result Chechen people will follow the Crazy Insane Bassayev, Putin lead a stupid policy there and I am afraid he will have to kill ALL the Chechen to restore peace.
As for Khodorkovski, I think is guilty but I also think he would have been condamned even if he was innocent.
Being a serious Putin's opponent in Russia is very very dangerous, you can go to jail for any reason or get poisonned like the journalist Anna Politkovskaya. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Right, Dudayev and Mashadov were the only Chechens leaders who genuinely represents the Chechen people and who were reasonable and responsible enough to negociate with.
Instead of this they were killed and Putin placed a Puppet in the seat of the Chechen Presidency, as a result Chechen people will follow the Crazy Insane Bassayev, Putin lead a stupid policy there and I am afraid he will have to kill ALL the Chechen to restore peace.
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You are fucking joking right? Dudayev having an actual interest in the well being Chechen people? And I suppose George Bush has an actual interest in the well being of the Iraqi people too?
The Chechen people got screwed over TWICE. Once by us in the end of the 80's and the beginning of the 90's when we allowed Dudayev to come to power and help him take out the people that were genuine. Then, they got screwed by Dudayev after the Chechen war. This is why now, if you care - the average Chechen HATES Basayev, Dudayev and the 90's figures in general, and the Russians aswell for the first war. But, they are trusting the reconstruction of the republic anyways. Nobody is going to follow 'Crazy insane Basayev'. They will get screwed by him just as they got screwed by Dudayev for "not praying when they should and not living like they should" and being killed for that. Even with the Federal forces in the Chechen republic, it STILL goes on - Basayev's gang STILL terrorises the people of the republic. To make things worse - the Federal forces associate those being terrorised by Basayev as being a terrorist!
Casey - Independence would not solve anything but make the situation much much much worse. They already had independence in the end of the 90's - it did not help them any and they revolted against Dudayev themselves. I see what is happening now as being a semi-correct track. The republic is being given back it's 'republic' status slowly as the Federal government is giving more responsibilties to the Republican government of the Chechen republic. If it was done in one day the same thing would happen as in the 90's. If we pull out ALL federal forces in one day rather than pull them out step by step, the Internal Forces of the Chechen Republic (Most of which fought in the Chechen war - against the federal forces and later switched sides after 2000) will not be able to maintain stability in the republic. One much also take into account that they may feel power and you will have a fight of the pro-russian gang (internal forces) against the anti-russian gang (Basayev's terrorists) for power, not for the interest of the average Chechen.
It seems that the Chechen republic will get a very large autonomity compared to other subjects of the Russian Federation (including republics) but the full sovreignty is not in anyone's interest expect for some Islamic fundementalists.
Vic |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Now, back on topic - Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
Everyone that is posting ANTI-PUTIN posts, PLEASE: Explain to me why you, as citizens of a sovreign nation other than the Russian Federation say WHAT the majority-elected head of state of the sovreign Russian Federation? It is beyond me...really. You have U.S. Senators make completely stupid comments regarding the Russian Federation and President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin; now, do you see us make the same stupid comments about the United States or other nations? Granted, you have Putin and a few others make comments about the FOREIGN policies of some nations, but in the past several years, I have only heard ONE comment regarding the INTERNAL POLICY of the United States - 2 months ago when President Putin called the U.S. electoral college undemocratic (fully agree with this) but in response to some braindead senators making some comments on the Yukos affair and "freedoms".
YOU have to face the fact that THE MAJORITY of the Russian Federation ELECTED and RE-ELECTED Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin as President. This means that THEY ARE CONFIDENT in his actions and that the MAJORITY supports him. EVERYONE that I know that voted for him the second time did so because they ARE PLEASED and SATISFIED with the dramatic increase in the quality of the life during his first term and because he carried out his promises. If he is elected and supported by the majority of the citizens - he is a good president. If he does not want the country to be bought out by American companies (like what happened in South America) who in no way care about the well being of Russian citizens and want to privatize (undervalued) state-owned enterprises - he is a good president, not a "dictator".
As Casey wisely pointed out - wherever the American 'advice' on internal policy is implemented, nothing good ever happens except for a few lucky ones. Again as Casey said - see (most of) South America. With the exception of Venezuela under their current president, who is being harshly critisized for defying the United States in the interest of the Venezuelan people. We will not even GO into how the United States has a habit of removing democratically elected heads of state for someone who will be their puppet. This policy works in small nations unable to defend themselves though...so since there is no chance of that working in the Russian Federation, this is the best that they can do.
Also note the fact that Bush has not once critisized President Putin to his face. Behind his back he can say whatever he wants, but he is avoiding conflict at all costs, does this say anything to you?
Vic
P.S. If I would could pick out a good place for one, I would order a poster of President Putin to hang on my wall. But this would require some redecorating. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Vic wrote: |
You are fucking joking right?
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No.
| Vic wrote: |
Dudayev having an actual interest in the well being Chechen people? And I suppose George Bush has an actual interest in the well being of the Iraqi people too?
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Well I was talking about Chechen not Iraqi but if you insist : Iraqi people don't piss in their trousers of fear when American soldiers come to them.
| Vic wrote: |
The Chechen people got screwed over TWICE. Once by us in the end of the 80's and the beginning of the 90's when we allowed Dudayev to come to power and help him take out the people that were genuine. Then, they got screwed by Dudayev after the Chechen war. This is why now, if you care - the average Chechen HATES Basayev, Dudayev and the 90's figures in general, and the Russians aswell for the first war. But, they are trusting the reconstruction of the republic anyways.
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May be you are right, may be you are wrong.
But what is the average Chechen now ?
Well you say Chechen hates Bassayev but I guess they love Putin 
And what about Mashadov ? He was the former President right ? Elected by Chechen Right ? And considered by Putin as a terrorist Right ? Killed by Putin Right ?
| Vic wrote: |
Nobody is going to follow 'Crazy insane Basayev'. They will get screwed by him just as they got screwed by Dudayev for "not praying when they should and not living like they should" and being killed for that. Even with the Federal forces in the Chechen republic, it STILL goes on - Basayev's gang STILL terrorises the people of the republic. To make things worse - the Federal forces associate those being terrorised by Basayev as being a terrorist!
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Nobody will follow Bassayev ? You are wrong, young Chechen guys prefer follow Bassayev and fight with him than being caught by Russians and executed like a sheep (like I ve said in other post).
I saw a TV broadcast, a french journalist team followed a Russian patrol in Chechnya. They were searching "terrorists" in a old farm. 2 young Chechens ran away when they saw russians coming, one got killed : 13 years old, the second (his brother 14 years old) was caught, the soldiers didn't kill him immediately because of french journalists but I guess as soon as the journalists left, this youg guys has been killed. Of course those young Chechens were not armed. Russian army kill young male Chechens systematically that's why they prefer being killed fighting (with Bassayev or any war leader).
And what about this russian journalist Anna Politkoskaya who got poisonned ? She critized toughly Putin for his Chechen policy and Beslan crisis, she got poisonned strange no ? Better be a pro Putin when you are journalist in Russia. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wizz, Vic is a brainwashed Russian who is foolishly accepting the carefully constructed Russian government spin. It's much easier to manipulate the voting populace in Russia when the media conglomerates are originating from the oligarch hierarchy and the Russian government's response at their growing power is to charge them and then acquire state control. While smaller media groups are left privatised, they still succumb to pressure by the State. The poisoning of that Russian is just another example how the government has decided to implement "you're either WITH US or you don't matter" policy ("or AGAINST US" is not allowed).
Of course, most Russians who support Putin can't rationalize or think critically because they are only given the Putin spin and all the major media outlets are controlled and influenced by Putin's group. Very few people value the importance of alternative media so they're overlooked or disregarded. Not even glossed over. Everyone does this, not just Russians but also the internet doesn't seem to be overly available or should I say, affordable. But, even North Americans don't value or use the alternativie media for considering various sources.
Russians like Vic think that U.S. Senators are the only voice of dissent or critique (of Putin policies) and thus, he is obviously misinformed and mistaken.
| Quote: | | Everyone that is posting ANTI-PUTIN posts, PLEASE: Explain to me why you, as citizens of a sovreign nation other than the Russian Federation say WHAT the majority-elected head of state of the sovreign Russian Federation? It is beyond me...really. You have U.S. Senators make compl |
You might want to clarify this question. If I assume you are asking why others can criticize, you should know that everyone does. EVERYONE. People in other countries criticized Bush for the invasion of Iraq. People criticize China for human rights abuses. North Korea is criticized for their Nuclear weapons program etc. I for one, don't give a shit what U.S. Senators are saying about Russia. I don't list or declare them as my sources. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Well I was talking about Chechen not Iraqi but if you insist : Iraqi people don't piss in their trousers of fear when American soldiers come to them.
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Yeah, thats right, they usually don't live long enough to see WHO is shooting at them to piss their pants.
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
May be you are right, may be you are wrong.
But what is the average Chechen now ?
Well you say Chechen hates Bassayev but I guess they love Putin
And what about Mashadov ? He was the former President right ? Elected by Chechen Right ? And considered by Putin as a terrorist Right ? Killed by Putin Right ?
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They like Putin much more than Yeltsin, Dudayev or Basayev.
Wrong, Right, Wrong.
He was not elected by the Chechen people. Please prove to me that there were DEMOCRATIC elections during a state of martial/shariah law where people were executed by the 'elected' government for shoplifting. Thanks for the laugh.
He was considered by Putin as a terrorist, but Putin was not the only one to think so.
Putin killed him? That is news to me! He really is a fast guy isn't he!?! Kremlin, Grozny, Tolstoi Yurt, Kremlin all in the same day and he had the time to kill him  Now you see why we vote for him?
Putin's orders were: Capture Maskhadov and Basayev ALIVE and offer 300million roubles and free plastic surgery to those who provided information leading to their arrest. (Although he was killed, several Chechens DID get the reward, anonymously ofcourse)
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Nobody will follow Bassayev ? You are wrong, young Chechen guys prefer follow Bassayev and fight with him than being caught by Russians and executed like a sheep (like I ve said in other post).
I saw a TV broadcast, a french journalist team followed a Russian patrol in Chechnya. They were searching "terrorists" in a old farm. 2 young Chechens ran away when they saw russians coming, one got killed : 13 years old, the second (his brother 14 years old) was caught, the soldiers didn't kill him immediately because of french journalists but I guess as soon as the journalists left, this youg guys has been killed. Of course those young Chechens were not armed. Russian army kill young male Chechens systematically that's why they prefer being killed fighting (with Bassayev or any war leader). |
No, they don't. Source please.
Vic |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mogsfan wrote: | | Wizz, Vic is a brainwashed Russian who is foolishly accepting the carefully constructed Russian government spin. It's much easier to manipulate the voting populace in Russia when the media conglomerates are originating from the oligarch hierarchy and the Russian government's response at their growing power is to charge them and then acquire state control. |
Have you tried going into stand-up comedy?
| Mogsfan wrote: |
Of course, most Russians who support Putin can't rationalize or think critically because they are only given the Putin spin and all the major media outlets are controlled and influenced by Putin's group. Very few people value the importance of alternative media so they're overlooked or disregarded. Not even glossed over. Everyone does this, not just Russians but also the internet doesn't seem to be overly available or should I say, affordable. But, even North Americans don't value or use the alternativie media for considering various sources.
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No they dont. They support him because of positive changes to their quality of life since the government under him unnoficially abandoned the idiotic idea of an 'Americanised, privatised Russia'.
On a side note: I rarely watch TV, I prefer the internet...I never can turn the TV on in time to catch the news. However I do agree with you that people do not choose alternative sources, and you are right again that they don't in North America...just look at half the american population thinking that Iraqis are happy to see them
| Mogsfan wrote: |
Russians like Vic think that U.S. Senators are the only voice of dissent or critique (of Putin policies) and thus, he is obviously misinformed and mistaken. |
Obviously mistaken? Please prove how. Generally, I think that any words coming out of the mouths of a nation that is locking down on freedoms and whose foreign policy reminds me of the Third Reich is either bullshit or very close to it. How about these 'senators' deal with their own problems regarding freedom and democracy and since they have alot of work to do, we will deal with ours AS WE PLEASE.
| Mogsfan wrote: |
You might want to clarify this question. If I assume you are asking why others can criticize, you should know that everyone does. EVERYONE. People in other countries criticized Bush for the invasion of Iraq. People criticize China for human rights abuses. North Korea is criticized for their Nuclear weapons program etc. I for one, don't give a shit what U.S. Senators are saying about Russia. I don't list or declare them as my sources. |
I said INTERNAL/DOMESTIC policy. Iraq is a FOREIGN policy.
I never said that you use them as sources. I just want to know why people look at another person's lawn giving them advice on how to make it green when their own lawn is brown.
Vic |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1601
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: mediashark on media |
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I'd rather not watch oligarch-controlled TV.
One example: Berezovsky dealt with terrorists and had undone all the peace-talks Aleksandr Lebed had been conducting. Lebed was no politician--he truly wanted to end the war--he was manipulated by both Yeltsin and Berezovsky. These people do not put the interest of the state or its people before themselves. When Putin took over Berezovsky's TV channel, he was ending this oligarch's control over the channel. It is not that there is complete freedom of speech there (like virtually no tv channel does), but it's not that anti-Putin remarks or news are excluded altogether on the channel.
Besides, if a reporter said something anti-Berezovsky, would he lose his job or be censored? Oligarchs waved the flag of 'free speech' only because it will help fulfill something on their personal agenda.
I do not think most people understand what democracy is, and we do need a slow but steady transition. Putin seems to be somewhere in the middle. Hopefully the next prez will be able to take Russia further down the road to democracy. Remember that Yeltsin was not a true democrat--his Russia was taken over by oligarchs and the like and many of them were very close to him personally and politically. He would often revert back to the Soviet type when trying times came. If you think Putin's election was unfair, remember Yeltsin's election for his second term where the oligarchs helped him *a lot*. While I guess it's kudos to them for stopping the commies... nobody can say that the oligarchs did it out of the sake of saving Russia--a communist state would be the death of their empires. Again, personal interests... |
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