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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Vic wrote: |
Yeah, thats right, they usually don't live long enough to see WHO is shooting at them to piss their pants.
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Nice joke. I have to say they are quite nervous but they don't behave like pirates like Russian soldiers do. They don't rape girls, they don't rob people, they don't rapt people and ask money for not killing them.
| Vic wrote: |
They like Putin much more than Yeltsin, Dudayev or Basayev.
Wrong, Right, Wrong.
He was not elected by the Chechen people. Please prove to me that there were DEMOCRATIC elections during a state of martial/shariah law where people were executed by the 'elected' government for shoplifting. Thanks for the laugh.
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Vic, I ve got a stomachache, you are really hilarious.
Thanks also for the laugh.
I could say the same : prove me that there weren't DEMOCRATIC election.
One thing I am sure, the Krelin puppet who sit in the Chechen Presidency hasn't been elected by the Chechen.
| Vic wrote: |
He was considered by Putin as a terrorist, but Putin was not the only one to think so.
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But any Chechen leader who is not chosen by Putin or the Russian government is considered as a terrorist.
| Vic wrote: |
Putin killed him? That is news to me! He really is a fast guy isn't he!?! Kremlin, Grozny, Tolstoi Yurt, Kremlin all in the same day and he had the time to kill him  Now you see why we vote for him?
Putin's orders were: Capture Maskhadov and Basayev ALIVE and offer 300million roubles and free plastic surgery to those who provided information leading to their arrest. (Although he was killed, several Chechens DID get the reward, anonymously ofcourse)
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Your words in a previous post :
Putin promissed to eliminate Bassayev and Mashkadov. In your opinion what does it mean "eliminate" in a former KGB officer mind ?
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
I guess as soon as the journalists left, this youg guys has been killed. Of course those young Chechens were not armed. Russian army kill young male Chechens systematically that's why they prefer being killed fighting (with Bassayev or any war leader). |
[/quote]
| Vic wrote: |
No, they don't. Source please.
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They did and they will continue.
Source : write to the French television. |
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vettra
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
Location: Cleveland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: checks & balances |
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>> Putin, unlike many other polititians, makes good on most of his promises.
Agreed. I think the real point of no return, at least in the Russian domain, is whether he killed anybody. Perhaps he's more like Belarus' Lukoshenko? {who I suspect is a big-time murderer, compared to Kuchma's 1 hit on newspaper investigative reporter Gonzady}
Speaking of murder: I think Khodorkovsky get it because he wasn't a killer, as opposed to many Russian thug-oligarchs [i'm reaching here, I don't have actual data]. Do doubt Putin doesn't have absolute control, and that bothers the shorty. So he takes it out on somebody [that he knows won't hit back]. Imagine trying to steal the Ferrari of some top oblast crime boss. The guy knows all the local crime groups and who's who in jail, killers, hit men, all the cops are his yes-men, he's got a veritable army. Khodorkovsky's a white-collar hustler, not a thug - relatively defenseless. That's my theory.
>> comparing 9-yr sentence for one person to Stalinism would be overkill.
Disagree. The American in me screams out, "violation - no checks & balances". A person will abuse his power w/out control. I thought Russians knew that? Khodorkovsky today, what's next tomorrow? This is Poly Sci 101. Stalin got away with it, because they were building a new government and he got in early. Perhaps Putin could have headed towards Stalinism in 1992. Too late - Russia has a mature power structure. So he needs to go slow. Or are you assuming he won't because he has a nice personality? That's hope. And ruling 160,000,000 people on hope - doesn't work.
Putin violated the law. The American president would be impeached for doing what Putin did. This is a major strength of America.
>> CEO of Enron getting something along the lines of 60 years?
Enron execs are getting punished in proportion to the amount of crime committed. I dunno if it's 60 years - I'm not a lawyer. Ivan Boesky (whom I met) got 3 years for stock manipulation, and was fined $300 million. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | No they dont. They support him because of positive changes to their quality of life since the government under him unnoficially abandoned the idiotic idea of an 'Americanised, privatised Russia'.
On a side note: I rarely watch TV, I prefer the internet...I never can turn the TV on in time to catch the news. However I do agree with you that people do not choose alternative sources, and you are right again that they don't in North America...just look at half the american population thinking that Iraqis are happy to see them |
So, they're as gullible as Americans who directly co-relate their economic success with a President?!? 
Putin instead grabbed the idea of state influence and control and squashing dissent or opposition. That's so much better, Vic! 
Yes, mistaken. I've posted several sources and Tracy posted a book source. My sources covered different newspapers, blogs, Russian and Western political anaysts, Russian politicans, professors etc. Not sure where you were but I suppose you decided to disregard them. That's fine.
I agree with you about the Senators. But, as citizens who can vote and are concerned about our own nations as well as the actions and behaviors of other nations, we have the freedom to both show and voice our concerns. (Note: I'm not saying we can do much about it, though.  )
| Quote: | I just want to know why people look at another person's lawn giving them advice on how to make it green when their own lawn is brown.
Vic |
Because we can and should. We can look at both lawns!  |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And, I assume that you consider yourself right? Solve your problems in Canada and then worry about what you think is wrong in other countries. This is called "American syndrome"...it looks contagious.
Vic
P.S. Vote Putin |
I almost didn't catch this. You are quite arrogant.
If someone changes the law and makes so I can run as President/Prime Minister in any country and elects me, I will try to solve the problems. 'Kay?  |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1601
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Take a look at David Hoffman's 'The Oligarchs' and Chrystia Freeland's 'Sale of the Century'. It'll give you a good idea of the mess Putin had to clean up. Plenty on Khodorkovsky too. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: mediashark on media |
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Mediashark, I think you are right, most people don't know the true meaning of democracy. Personally, I really don't think it works very well. The people are too selfish, foolish, and are easily manipulated. But, in addition, the people implementing the so-called democracy don't really have a sincere desire to ensure and implement the democracy. Most will utilize it for their private interests (like you asserted) and the extent or seriousness of this varies on the politicians/government.
I'm unsure about Lebed. I can't really recall what he was like but way back when, I initially thought of him as a tough-minded police state type of governor/politician.
In my view, Yeltsin became a puppet. He was a drunk and didn't really give a sh** about Russia. He didn't have a genuine concern for Russians and his privatisation and continuing "perestroika" was just because it was too late to turn back the clock or grasp dictatorial control. There were too many forces vying for control and power. His best method (according to his advisors) was to give various economic and financial influence to various businessmen (the oligarchs) and have them finance him (in elections and just in general). Thus, he could secure power and have a nice bankroll. A lot of money means buying booze whenever he wanted it. The West writes totally bogus stuff if they claim he was trying to improve and make Russia prosperous. But, Putin was handpicked by Yeltsin. Putin had no ethics also being a comrade of Yeltsin. Russia was forced into becoming increasingly privatised and the economic freedoms that was being promoted in Russia meant that Putin couldn't exactly dublicate the situation that Yeltsin had. Thus, it appears that Putin is altering the system somewhat. Since a lot of Oligarchs didn't want to be tied to the Presidency/Duma any longer, Putin is trying to break some of them up in order to still secure state control and influence on their possessions. The media and oil barons left are still Putin buddies and the rest have been forced to leave the country or face criminal charges. Thus, the Putin government and his friends get the best of both worlds. They can claim they didn't have a hand in the creation of the oligarchs and that they are finally seeking justice (trying to right wrongs and fight crime). Meanwhile, they can obtain the oligarch's business for their own and decide how they want it to benefit the state (state meaning United Russia, Putin and his cronies).
| mediashark wrote: | I'd rather not watch oligarch-controlled TV.
One example: Berezovsky dealt with terrorists and had undone all the peace-talks Aleksandr Lebed had been conducting. Lebed was no politician--he truly wanted to end the war--he was manipulated by both Yeltsin and Berezovsky. These people do not put the interest of the state or its people before themselves. When Putin took over Berezovsky's TV channel, he was ending this oligarch's control over the channel. It is not that there is complete freedom of speech there (like virtually no tv channel does), but it's not that anti-Putin remarks or news are excluded altogether on the channel.
Besides, if a reporter said something anti-Berezovsky, would he lose his job or be censored? Oligarchs waved the flag of 'free speech' only because it will help fulfill something on their personal agenda.
I do not think most people understand what democracy is, and we do need a slow but steady transition. Putin seems to be somewhere in the middle. Hopefully the next prez will be able to take Russia further down the road to democracy. Remember that Yeltsin was not a true democrat--his Russia was taken over by oligarchs and the like and many of them were very close to him personally and politically. He would often revert back to the Soviet type when trying times came. If you think Putin's election was unfair, remember Yeltsin's election for his second term where the oligarchs helped him *a lot*. While I guess it's kudos to them for stopping the commies... nobody can say that the oligarchs did it out of the sake of saving Russia--a communist state would be the death of their empires. Again, personal interests... |
Last edited by Mogsfan on Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nice joke. I have to say they are quite nervous but they don't behave like pirates like Russian soldiers do. They don't rape girls, they don't rob people, they don't rapt people and ask money for not killing them. |
But ironically you admitted in the other thread that Chechens are more crueler than Russians and you saw this on video.
| Quote: | | But any Chechen leader who is not chosen by Putin or the Russian government is considered as a terrorist. |
But they tend to be terrorists. As was said in the previous thread and proven, Bassaev is an Islamist terrorist.
| Quote: | | Putin promissed to eliminate Bassayev and Mashkadov. In your opinion what does it mean "eliminate" in a former KGB officer mind |
Welll......Maskadov is officially dead and the Russian government keeps claiming that he's dead only for him to come back. Its really funny.
| Quote: | | I could say the same : prove me that there weren't DEMOCRATIC election. |
Sure! This proves that Vic is correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
| Quote: | The former separatist and Chechen Mufti, Akhmad Kadyrov, looked upon as a traitor by many Chechen separatists, was elected president with 83% of the vote in an internationally monitored election on October 5, 2003. However, observers from the OSCE reported intimidation of voters and ballot stuffing by Russian soldiers and the exclusion from election lists of separatist parties.
On August 29, 2004 a new Presidential election took place. According to the Chechen electoral commission, Alu Alkhanov, former Chechen Minister of Interior, received approximately 74% of the vote. Voter turnout was 85.2%. Some observers, such as the U.S. Department of State, International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, as well as the opposition, question the election, citing, in part, the disqualification of the major rival Malik Saidullayev on a technicality. |
So whatever "election" that took place, was rigged or like Vic says, the locals were heavily intimidated. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Looking all what was said in these previous posts, I guess that Camrade's logic seems to be the sensible and also why he tends to stay out of the political thread: Its easy to judge Russia from the outside. Especially for people who know nothing about the culture and would rather rely on western media and so-called "experts".  |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: checks & balances |
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| vettra wrote: |
Khodorkovsky today, what's next tomorrow? This is Poly Sci 101. Stalin got away with it, because they were building a new government and he got in early. Perhaps Putin could have headed towards Stalinism in 1992. Too late - Russia has a mature power structure. So he needs to go slow. Or are you assuming he won't because he has a nice personality? That's hope. And ruling 160,000,000 people on hope - doesn't work.
Putin violated the law. The American president would be impeached for doing what Putin did. This is a major strength of America.
Enron execs are getting punished in proportion to the amount of crime committed. I dunno if it's 60 years - I'm not a lawyer. Ivan Boesky (whom I met) got 3 years for stock manipulation, and was fined $300 million. |
Really? What law did he violate? He would be impeached if he did...but he didn't.
He is not ruling anyone on hope, he is ruling them on results.
Yukos execs are also being punished in accordance to their crime. Tax evation and fraud in large ammounts. This is overlooking the original sale of Yukos at a rigged auction - that was not in the case. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Nice joke. I have to say they are quite nervous but they don't behave like pirates like Russian soldiers do. They don't rape girls, they don't rob people, they don't rapt people and ask money for not killing them.
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Duh, why the formalities when you can just kill them right off the bat? Right? But, despite this there are numerous reports of rape and torture.
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Vic, I ve got a stomachache, you are really hilarious.
Thanks also for the laugh.
I could say the same : prove me that there weren't DEMOCRATIC election.
One thing I am sure, the Krelin puppet who sit in the Chechen Presidency hasn't been elected by the Chechen. |
Puppet? He was elected. Nobody legitimately disputed this either. You have the usuall OSCE which:
a) boycotts the elections (they were invited)
b) says that the elections were unfair because the public was pressured and because they assumed that there was ballot stuffing
Now, do you see anything wrong with that. As the old saying goes: When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME. Making accusations which are based on NOTHING falls into that category. The elections were attended by observers from the CIS and the LAN (League of Arab Nations) Both of which said that the elections were democratic and fair. Western observers were invited, they boycotted, their problem. But - if you boycott and do not attend - do not make stupid comments.
Read 'e' below about the proof.
| mister_wizzz wrote: | But any Chechen leader who is not chosen by Putin or the Russian government is considered as a terrorist.
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No, any leader who is supporting a jihad is considered a terrorist and rightfully so. If they consider this, they are Wahabittes-a branch of islam which does not really follow the teachings of Muhammad anyways and are violen in their ways. Shiites and Sunnites do not relate "jihad" to "holy war". It is the other way around  The Russian government does not support terrorists.
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Your words in a previous post :
Putin promissed to eliminate Bassayev and Mashkadov. In your opinion what does it mean "eliminate" in a former KGB officer mind ? |
He used the word "voz'mem" which I translated as "eliminate". His orders were to capture them though.
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Source : write to the French television. |
You write to them, it is you that is trying to prove this to me.
Vic |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mogsfan wrote: | So, they're as gullible as Americans who directly co-relate their economic success with a President?!?
Yes, mistaken. I've posted several sources and Tracy posted a book source. My sources covered different newspapers, blogs, Russian and Western political anaysts, Russian politicans, professors etc. Not sure where you were but I suppose you decided to disregard them. That's fine.
I agree with you about the Senators. But, as citizens who can vote and are concerned about our own nations as well as the actions and behaviors of other nations, we have the freedom to both show and voice our concerns. (Note: I'm not saying we can do much about it, though. )
Because we can and should. We can look at both lawns! |
No, they co-relate their stability to the President because when he came into power, stability came into the country.
I have read the links you have posted about the media...I don't see what it proves though. They were run by oligarhs running their propaganda and are now the federal government's but not running propaganda albeit not showing the full picture either (but - nobody does except maybe Euronews because they never give their opinion) You still forget RENTV.
We, as citizens, can voice our concerns and you cannot say that they are not heard either. Remember the pension reforms? The elderly spoke up, picketed and then got what they wanted (or almost all of what they wanted).
Yes, you can look at both lawns but you cannot imply that the neighbour much do to his lawn what you do to it, if you don't, you are wrong.
Vic |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Nice joke. I have to say they are quite nervous but they don't behave like pirates like Russian soldiers do. They don't rape girls, they don't rob people, they don't rapt people and ask money for not killing them.
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| Vic wrote: |
Duh, why the formalities when you can just kill them right off the bat? Right? But, despite this there are numerous reports of rape and torture.
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Crimes done by Russians in Chechnya are tremendously more numerous than Americans ones done in Iraq.
One more thing : American soldiers who commited serious crimes are comdemned, give me an example with Russians soldiers comdemned by Russian justice ?
There is none, but You will probably tell me that Russians soldiers didn't commited crimes in Chechnya ?
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Vic, I ve got a stomachache, you are really hilarious.
Thanks also for the laugh.
I could say the same : prove me that there weren't DEMOCRATIC election.
One thing I am sure, the Krelin puppet who sit in the Chechen Presidency hasn't been elected by the Chechen.
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| Vic wrote: |
Puppet? He was elected. Nobody legitimately disputed this either. You have the usuall OSCE which:
a) boycotts the elections (they were invited)
b) says that the elections were unfair because the public was pressured and because they assumed that there was ballot stuffing
Now, do you see anything wrong with that. As the old saying goes: When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME. Making accusations which are based on NOTHING falls into that category. The elections were attended by observers from the CIS and the LAN (League of Arab Nations) Both of which said that the elections were democratic and fair. Western observers were invited, they boycotted, their problem. But - if you boycott and do not attend - do not make stupid comments.
Read 'e' below about the proof.
|
Yes he is a puppet and his election was a big masquerade. You say EU representatives boycotted this election ? Of course they did, why wasting time and money to conclude to what they already knew : this election is A BIG MASQUERADE.
| mister_wizzz wrote: | But any Chechen leader who is not chosen by Putin or the Russian government is considered as a terrorist.
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| Vic wrote: |
No, any leader who is supporting a jihad is considered a terrorist and rightfully so. If they consider this, they are Wahabittes-a branch of islam which does not really follow the teachings of Muhammad anyways and are violen in their ways. Shiites and Sunnites do not relate "jihad" to "holy war". It is the other way around The Russian government does not support terrorists.
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Bassayev is an Islamist, Mashkadov was not. Below an article about Mashkadov death explaining that killing him removed the only chance to make peace with a moderated and respected (by its own people) Chechen leader.
http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/2005/03-08-5.htm
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Your words in a previous post :
Putin promissed to eliminate Bassayev and Mashkadov. In your opinion what does it mean "eliminate" in a former KGB officer mind ?
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| Vic wrote: |
He used the word "voz'mem" which I translated as "eliminate". His orders were to capture them though.
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Seriously, you really want me beleive Putin wanted MAshkadov be arrested ? What a joke !
Mashkadov has been blasted in his bunker using a bomb : strange way to arrest somebody : russian method ?
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Source : write to the French television.
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| Vic wrote: |
You write to them, it is you that is trying to prove this to me.
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No Vic don't have time to do so, BTW I don't want to prove you anything. I just notice that when I said in a previous post that Chechen islamists made horrors on Russian soldiers you did't ask for proof.
Just key on google "crime, rap, torture in Chechnya" and you will get tons of reports made by independant organisations. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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In response:
| Quote: | give me an example with Russians soldiers comdemned by Russian justice ?
There is none, but You will probably tell me that Russians soldiers didn't commited crimes in Chechnya ? |
Here you go:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3676928.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya
| Quote: | | Colonel Yuri Budanov has reportedly been the first Russian to be tried on charges of war crimes committed in Chechnya. He was brought to trial in late 2002 on charges of murder and abduction, after being accused of raping and strangling Heda Kungayeva, an 18 year old Chechen girl whom Budanov claimed was a separatist sniper. In a controversial decision, he was found not guilty by reason of insanity on December 31, 2002 and committed to a psychiatric hospital for further evaluation and treatment. The sentence was appealed. The higher court decided that he was sane, and so was found guilty and sentenced to 10 years prison term |
And again @ http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/921.cfm
| Quote: | Seriously, you really want me beleive Putin wanted MAshkadov be arrested ? What a joke !
Mashkadov has been blasted in his bunker using a bomb : strange way to arrest somebody : russian method ? |
Correction again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan_Maskhadov
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4330393.stm
| Quote: | | Maskhadov returned to life as a guerrilla leader, living in hiding as Russia's second most wanted man after Basayev, with Russia placing a $10 million bounty on his capture. |
| Quote: | | The special operations unit had wanted to take Maskhadov alive for interrogation, but apparently killed him accidentally with a grenade thrown into a reinforced bunker where Maskhadov was hiding. |
Last edited by e on Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: | Crimes done by Russians in Chechnya are tremendously more numerous than Americans ones done in Iraq.
One more thing : American soldiers who commited serious crimes are comdemned, give me an example with Russians soldiers comdemned by Russian justice ?
There is none, but You will probably tell me that Russians soldiers didn't commited crimes in Chechnya ? |
I would not say that they are more numerous either. Condemmed? You are joking right? Beating a prisoner to death and getting 2 months in prison is condeming? Wow! I wish we had that kind of justice here!
A year ago several officers were given 14 years in prison for unjustly opening fire on a passenger vehicle killing 2 residents of the Chechen republic and injuring 2 others (I think - not sure bout the numbers). This was a scandal too because they appealed it and there were protests in Grozny and Rostov because of the appeal - the sentence remained. Now I would like to see that in the U.S.! I do know that there are PLENTY of cases that go unpunished both in Chechnya and in Iraq, but who says that even half of those kindnappings and rapes were BY Federal forces? Can you honestly prove that to me? People assume rape+chechen women=russian soldier. What about this: U.S. backing+albanian moslems+serbian women=kidnappings and rape? (I just said that in case you were going to say something along the lines of "they are moslem, its against the Quran" Yes, it is, if they acually read the Quran once in their lives! We are talking about Wahabittes here, not Shiites or Sunnites!
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Yes he is a puppet and his election was a big masquerade. You say EU representatives boycotted this election ? Of course they did, why wasting time and money to conclude to what they already knew : this election is A BIG MASQUERADE. |
Well, since it is a big masquerade and a waste of their time, THEY SHOULD KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND NOT MAKE BASELESS ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT ANY PROOF! Keeping in mind that the international observers that DID attend said the elections were DEMOCRATIC! If they did actually attend them and made such comments, I would not call the comments utter bullshit not even worthy of use as toilet paper!
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Seriously, you really want me beleive Putin wanted MAshkadov be arrested ? What a joke !
Mashkadov has been blasted in his bunker using a bomb : strange way to arrest somebody : russian method ? |
Yes, he did want him to be captured. They did offer him to surrender. They did not 'blast his buker with a bomb'; they threw a flashbang granade down there. If they used a bomb, his body would not be in such good condition that it was.
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
No Vic don't have time to do so, BTW I don't want to prove you anything. I just notice that when I said in a previous post that Chechen islamists made horrors on Russian soldiers you did't ask for proof.
Just key on google "crime, rap, torture in Chechnya" and you will get tons of reports made by independant organisations. |
Again, WHY do you think that ALL of those cases were BY Russian soldiers? |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Vic wrote: |
I would not say that they are more numerous either. Condemmed? You are joking right?
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No.
| Vic wrote: |
Beating a prisoner to death and getting 2 months in prison is condeming? Wow! I wish we had that kind of justice here!
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Never heard about this. The only thing I know is that Lydie England and her husband got 10 years of jail for torturing and humiliating prisonners.
I don't believe your story, if Lydie England got 10 years without killing prisonners how a guy who commited a murder could get 2 months ? Be serious please.
| Vic wrote: |
A year ago several officers were given 14 years in prison for unjustly opening fire on a passenger vehicle killing 2 residents of the Chechen republic and injuring 2 others (I think - not sure bout the numbers). This was a scandal too because they appealed it and there were protests in Grozny and Rostov because of the appeal - the sentence remained. Now I would like to see that in the U.S.!
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The big majority of people in US want their army to be irreproachable. When the Abou Graib scandal broke out a lot of US citizens asked for justice and wanted the responsibles to be punished.
But really for one who is convinced guilty how many escape to justice in your country ? One big diffrence between US and Russia : there is no corruption in US justice, in Russia you can pay to get a lighter sentence.
| Vic wrote: |
I do know that there are PLENTY of cases that go unpunished both in Chechnya and in Iraq,
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In Chechnya, one thousand times more.
| Vic wrote: |
but who says that even half of those kindnappings and rapes were BY Federal forces? Can you honestly prove that to me? People assume rape+chechen women=russian soldier.
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I ve never said Chechen rebels were angels, a lot of them are fucking bastards but the big majority of war crimes were by Federal forces.
I cannot myself prove anything because I didn't go there, but just get the war crime reports made by human rights organisation and also read articles made by Russians journalists who still dare doing their job in Russia.
"Rape + chechen women = russian soldier"
Yes I persist : sad but true. Can you imagine a Chechen girl giving herself to a Russian ? First because it is against Quran law like you say, second it will be considered betrayal.
Anyway if a chechen girl want to get a male she will chose a Chechen male (if Russians let some alive).
| Vic wrote: |
What about this: U.S. backing+albanian moslems+serbian women=kidnappings and rape? (I just said that in case you were going to say something along the lines of "they are moslem, its against the Quran" Yes, it is, if they acually read the Quran once in their lives! We are talking about Wahabittes here, not Shiites or Sunnites!
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Where did you get this thougth Chechens are wahabite ? Some yes, but most of them are sunnite fighting the Russians because Russians are killing their people
"U.S. backing+albanian moslems+serbian women=kidnappings and rape"
No, no. US soldiers are professionnal and well trained, their officers are not corrupted and they control simple troopers (who are btw also professionnal). A lot of Russian officers in Chechnya want only to get money by any means, they don't care if their troopers under their command kill, rape etc ...
Just key "Chechnya war crimes" on google and read some reports it is amazing how the impunity feeling is spread on russian troops in Chechnya.
| Vic wrote: |
Well, since it is a big masquerade and a waste of their time, THEY SHOULD KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND NOT MAKE BASELESS ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT ANY PROOF! Keeping in mind that the international observers that DID attend said the elections were DEMOCRATIC!
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Yes observers coming from dictatures, it is cynically funny.
| Vic wrote: |
If they did actually attend them and made such comments, I would not call the comments utter bullshit not even worthy of use as toilet paper!
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EU observers think probably the same about those elections and don't give a crap to their "blinded international observers".
| Vic wrote: |
Yes, he did want him to be captured. They did offer him to surrender. They did not 'blast his buker with a bomb'; they threw a flashbang granade down there. If they used a bomb, his body would not be in such good condition that it was.
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Well when you want to kill somebody, it is not necessary to destroy his body, a body in good state allow you to show the cadaver to the press and say : I successfully did what I promissed !
I guess Dudayev also had to be captured : using missiles shot from a plane right ?
| Vic wrote: |
Again, WHY do you think that ALL of those cases were BY Russian soldiers? |
No I don't think all of those cases were by Russian soldier but a big majority yes.
WHY ? Do you really think Chechen rebels even Bassayev's ones could commit crimes against their own people ? |
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