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new penalty - extreme torture - for Nurpashi Kulayev? Goto page 1, 2  Next

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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:06 pm    Post subject: new penalty - extreme torture - for Nurpashi Kulayev? This is the sole survivor of the murdering group in the Beslan massacre. He probably has a lot of valuable info in his head about where the bad guys are. I think death penalty is too good for this guy.
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MrSpice Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431	Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: You must have a lot of free time down there in Atlanta to think about this stuff.
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:20 pm    Post subject: The Beslan massacre is something all people should be thinking about. I am not a proponent of capital punishment, including in Kulayev's case, but I think unless he manages to give up his co-conspirators that survived (and I'm convinced more than Kulayev survived) and his information leads to the elimination of other terrorist cells, something needs to be done with him. I wonder how Russians would treat him in the prison system? Then again I imagine Russia's prisons are chock full of Chechens anyway.
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MrSpice Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431	Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject: you shouldn't just bundle him with other terrorists, because Russian conflict with Chechnia has been a complex one. That terrorist can probably say that Russian soldiers killed and tortured many of his relatives. I don't justify in any way someone who kills innocent civilians. People of that nature are scum of the earth. But the reason for chechen terrorism is different from islamic terror that America is dealing with since it's based on the brutal armed conflict between russia and its government and Chechnia that wants to be independent.
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Quote: the reason for chechen terrorism is different from islamic terror that America is dealing with since it's based on the brutal armed conflict between russia and its government and Chechnia that wants to be independent. Errr....How different? Nearly all of the Chechen terrorists including the baddies responsible for Belsan are Islamic Terrorists. A lot of them are in Al Quida, and Osama has even reputedly visited Chechnya before. They both advocate the same cause its just that Chechen terrorists want to bring down the Russian government only . I suspect that they'll keep him alive in the same vein why the US keeps captured Al quida guys alive --to try and get intel from him.
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greg222 VIP Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 599	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Quote: Errr....How different? Different enough to warrant separate categories in academic analysis. Chechen terrorism fits in the "Nationalist-Separatist" category and should therefore be viewed in the same vein as other such movements (IRA, ETA, etc). Al-Qaeda falls into the "Religious Fundamentalist" category. Sharing a religion does not make them the same. There is a big difference in both their motivations and their objectives.
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:43 am    Post subject: Quote: Different enough to warrant separate categories in academic analysis. Chechen terrorism fits in the "Nationalist-Separatist" category and should therefore be viewed in the same vein as other such movements (IRA, ETA, etc). Al-Qaeda falls into the "Religious Fundamentalist" category. Sharing a religion does not make them the same. There is a big difference in both their motivations and their objectives. But most of the Chechen terrorists are Islamic Terrorists and some are members of Al-Qaeda. You can't deny that. Osama vocally supports the Chechen cause and has visited and given them money before. There were Arabs found and present amoung the terrorists at the Theatre siege, Beslan, and in Chechnya. The last couple of terrorist attacks in Moscow were Islamist style suicide bombings. And the islamic variety of the terrorists essentialy want the same thing as Al-Qaeda: to establish an Taliban-esque Islamic state in Chechnya and to take down the Russian government. From the wikipedia article: Al-Qaeda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda Quote: Al-Qaeda training camps trained militant Muslims from around the world, some of whom later applied their training in various conflicts in places such as India, Algeria, Chechnya,
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Well, even I can deny that Chechens are members of Al-Qaeda. I've never seen any credible evidence to that effect, and I've read several articles on Sobaka that point to the fact that the whole "Chechen-Al-Qaeda" link have been trumped up to justify an American military presence in Georgia (where supposedly AQ operatives were active in the Pankisi Gorge alongside Chechen fighters). This was roundly proved to be false, and this was back in '02 or '03. On the other hand, Basayev and his boys are Wahabi Islamists. They are not Wahabi "muslims," but ISLAMISTS. That is not a religion it is a political philosophy in a similar vein of the Taliban but a lot more Arabic than central Asian. All I know is that ETA and the PIRA never killed 300 children in a school (if anything, the Irish loyalists are the ones who've killed more civilians than the PIRA). The quicker Basayev is splattered all over the Caucasus mountains and the Islamists are destroyed or decimated so badly that they can never regroup and begin killing civilians again, the better. If anyone wants hours of documentary footage (some in English, some in Russian, some in Chechen, some in Arabic, some in Turkish) let me know. I'm willing to bet that few, if any, on these forums have seen the video of the gruesome execution of Yevgeniy Rodionov. It is so horrible and graphic that I couldn't watch it. That's the level this "complex conflict" is operating on. I've seen a Chechen terrorist shooting the individual fingers off of a Russian soldier. I've seen Chechen terrorists beheading 19-yr. old, unarmed prisoners of war. I understand that heavy-handed Russian retaliation leads only to revenge attacks, but the Chechen terrorists aren't going to stop fighting just because Russia does - therefore, they must be utterly destroyed to secure peace in the region. I don't like saying that, believe me, but I can't see another solution in the Caucasus.
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Jutrzenkapolska VIP Joined: 16 Sep 2004 Posts: 534	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: I say they give the terrorists what they want and let Chechnya go. End the violence.
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mister_wizzz VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:51 am    Post subject: There is no evidence Bassayev is Al Quaeda member but he has the same political aim : forcing Chechnya to be an Islamic Republic without people agreement. All Chechen are not civilian murderers, I am thinking to Dudayev and Mashadov, they always condamned attacks on civilians. But I am afraid the violence of this war will push the Chechens (Islamist or not) to fight til the last because it seems they don't have choice : better got killed fighting the ennemy than being caught and executed like a sheep. Putin didn't understand that there is no military solution, he could have negociated the peace with Mashadov who is a former Chechen President elected by its own people, instead of this he killed him. There is no more responsible Chechen leader to negociate with and war will go on .... 2 El CAsey : I saw like you horrors made by Bassayev Chechens rebels on Russian soldiers but I also saw the same horrors made by Russian soldiers. Violence call violence. 2 Vettra : Killing or torturing this terrorist will not resuscitate all people who got killed in Beslan.
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: Quote: Well, even I can deny that Chechens are members of Al-Qaeda. I've never seen any credible evidence to that effect, and I've read several articles on Sobaka that point to the fact that the whole "Chechen-Al-Qaeda" link have been trumped up to justify an American military presence in Georgia (where supposedly AQ operatives were active in the Pankisi Gorge alongside Chechen fighters). This was roundly proved to be false, and this was back in '02 or '03. Looking for evidence? Here you go: Al-Qaeda suspect tells of Chechnya link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2372971.stm Quote: Some of the 11 September hijackers wanted to fight against Russia in Chechnya, their alleged accomplice has told a German court. Mounir al-Motassadek told his trial in Hamburg that at least four of the men had gone to Afghanistan to be trained for the war in Chechnya. The Russians were seen by the men as committing war crimes in Chechnya, Mr Motassadek said, and they wanted to go there to help combat them. Nothing trumped up here. You have Osama and Al-Qaeda exploiting the fact that a majority of Chechens are Muslim to his advantage --just like what he's doing and has done everywhere else. More about that here: http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/chechens.html Quote: The late Chechen warlord Khattab, a Jordanian-born fighter who was killed in Chechnya in April 2002, and Osama bin Laden. Khattab apparently first met bin Laden while both men were fighting the 1979-89 Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Quote: If anyone wants hours of documentary footage (some in English, some in Russian, some in Chechen, some in Arabic, some in Turkish) let me know. I remember catching on Russian TV while I was there Shamil Basayev get his foot amputated while he had a poker face on the whole time. Very disgusting. I don't know if violently destroying them is the answer; the Chechens have been violently destroyed before in the past so this is nothing new in their book. They'll just try again later. I'd advocate for what Polska said if not for the fact that its waaayyy too late for that now. I'll take Vic's word for it since he owns a Dacha right next door in Abkhazia in that everything has calmed down a bit and returing to normal. I guess it'll remain a Russian republic. BTW America is in Georgia not because of AQ but because they are protecting that big huge new oil pipeline that runs through the country and was just recently competed. Remember Casey, oil comes first in US foreign policy.
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mediashark Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599	Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Jutrzenkapolska wrote: I say they give the terrorists what they want and let Chechnya go. End the violence. No one should ever give in to terrorists. If you do you're either weak or stupid.
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greg222 VIP Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 599	Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:44 am    Post subject: The Chechen struggle is one of self-determination. Hence, by definition they are a nationalist-separatist movement. This isn't to detract from your points. It just seemed to me that you didn't agree with this. Basayev may share views in line with Al-Qaeda, but when you kill the 'moderates' that's all you're left with. And having mercenaries trained by Al-Qaeda fighting for a cause is different to being a wing of Al-Qaeda. As for why they kill more than other nationalist-separatist movements: firstly that's the trend in modern terrorism. Secondly, Russia doesn't rate in world news. Small-scale attacks will bring no publicity. Thirdly, other ethnicities seeking self-determination aren't as brutally oppressed as the Chechens. And no form of terrorism warrants such abuses of human rights. How can you claim the moral higher ground when you are no better than the terrorists? Quote: No one should ever give in to terrorists. If you do you're either weak or stupid. Or the bigger person. Does it not sadden you to see young Russian conscripts with a leg or half their head missing begging on the streets? For what? Does the average Russian benefit from having Chechnya stay as part of Russia?
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:43 am    Post subject: relocate the Chechens? I once came up with an idea but it's kinda ugly - shades of Nazism, no Stalinism - no, England sending undersirables to Australia ... perhaps, but I wonder if it would work in with a small population: how about relocating everybody in Chechneya, scattering them across Russia? It is cruel as it is forced displacement of everyone. Give them homes and land equal to what they have. However this is kind, as I understand Russia is gradually decimating the Chechen population and that is equivalent to "legal" murder. It wouldn't work with say 30million people but isn't Chechneya small (and Russia huge?) Of course this doesn't mean send them to the Gulag - they must be given better environments than what they have now. imagine Chechneya empty - anyone except Russian militia is trespassing. It is a relatively easy plan. Scattering (population dispersal) is required or else you still have the same group of disgruntled terrorists huddled together, maybe they will begin to bomb Moscow in the name of Area 59 or wherever. This way, each Chechen now interacts with good-ol' down-home patriotic Russians. This would be a huge public works project - which could be healthy to the Russian economy (eg FDR's programs combated the Great Depression). What I'm proposing is saving lives. It is unpleasant in that it violates individual's freedoms. If you shout "Nazi!" bear in mind that I propose something that *must* be fair and equitable. Poor Russians might even flock to Grozny to cash in on the program. Since Chechneya is inside Russia, and the Russian government is committed to keep it that way.. Imagine a group of people in the middle of Moscow saying This area is not Russia, we are "Buldogians, and we will fight to the death to preserve Buldogia!" -at some point people will say "no that is not acceptable". I think it's way better than the alternative - firebombing Grozny
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: mister_wizzz wrote: 2 Vettra: Killing or torturing this terrorist will not resuscitate all people who got killed in Beslan. I am going to tell you a secret, Mr. wizzz, but promise not to tell anyone. I don't support torturing or not torturing Nurpashi Kulayev. From the little I read, it is not so clear how involved he was in the killing, and apparently the Russian police really messed it up (again?). There is also "the Stockholm Syndrome" - people actually siding with him after he gave testimony in court. I planted the subject because it is emotionally explosive. I am only a fuse. Facing this topic requires you to think. I expected the commentary on this thread is of higher quality than the usual mindless dribble I read here. This being only 2 days into it, I am right. Here's a very interesting link - a photo essay of Grozny: http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/grozny.htm Completely off-topic: I had a discussion with Victor Yushenko's wife's sister today, and I left with the impression that V.Y. is the sole shining star in the hopelessly corrupt, evil set of rulers in the ex-USSR basket. Maybe there is still hope. For those of you out-of-the-loop, Victor Yuschenko is the president of Ukraine. Funny I have never run into V.Y.'s wife (I think), even though we both lived in the same Chicago neighborhood and have both done work for the State Department.
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