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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mogsfan wrote: | | How much time? Time for what? Are you saying there are no homeless in Russia or those who need medical care? How long do they have to wait? |
Tracy, even the UN has projected what are, in my opinion, dramatic decreases in Russia's population (by over 20 million!) in the next 50 years.
And Mogs, how many homeless people live in the United States? How long does the US need to be the only industrialized nation on Earth that provides NO form of national healthcare? The US has been around for 225 years - the Russian Federation has existed for fifteen.
Why are we so short-sighted and expect things to happen overnight? More importantly, there was no Marshall Plan for Russia, much less the former SSRs. Their economy was hijacked in 1998 (IMF/World Bank issues) which meant they basically had to start over in 1999 from where they were in 1991/92. So what's your solution? Do you have one? Eliminate Putin and all will right itself? That's as oversimplified as saying "remove Bush and the world will love America again." It takes time - EVERYTHING does. |
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Jutrzenkapolska
VIP
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 534
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Remember how the Clintons tried to reform health care?And they couldn't get the first bill passed in Congress? Sad, sad, sad.This is what happens when doctors unions are allowed to gain too much power and influence... |
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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Doctor's unions? I think the main problem all those years ago was a majority Republican congress screaming about the Democrats' "socialist policies" and they were just being contrarian asses instead of actually trying to help people. There is quite simply no defense for America's lack of decent healthcare for all citizens, since over 10% of the entire population of the US (based on 300,000,000) and nearly 1/3rd of the workforce simply have no health care coverage whatsoever. It's approaching the realm of the criminal. |
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Jutrzenkapolska
VIP
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 534
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, but Congress wasn't the only thing standing in the way.All the drug lobbies and the entire health care industry opposed reform because it would have cost them.*&^$ heads  |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:56 am Post subject: |
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We're talking about Russia, here, not the States! How come when people use America as positive examples and criticize Russia, others complain? When Russia is criticized, people state the negatives of the U.S. But, then, there are those people, Russians and non-Russians who want Americans to not stick their noses in.
I am arguing or suggesting considering Russia as a separate entity and the potential to pursue it's own democracy without constantly making comparisons to the United States.
What would I do? For one, I would have economic experts examine and analyse various systems (Sweden, U.S., Canada, Japan etc.) and select the most positive and applicable out of those systems. I would examine global and economical trends and have incentives for Russians to engage in those. China's rise was due to low wages but production of high-demand tech items. But, that won't continue indefinitely. But, Russia's problem, to me, is one of ethics and overblown ideas of capitalism.
Of course it takes time. But, the entire government needs to be reformed. There are still politicians from the old school left and bribes /corruption are always there to prevent reforms and progress, imho.
| init6 wrote: |
And Mogs, how many homeless people live in the United States? How long does the US need to be the only industrialized nation on Earth that provides NO form of national healthcare? The US has been around for 225 years - the Russian Federation has existed for fifteen.
Why are we so short-sighted and expect things to happen overnight? More importantly, there was no Marshall Plan for Russia, much less the former SSRs. Their economy was hijacked in 1998 (IMF/World Bank issues) which meant they basically had to start over in 1999 from where they were in 1991/92. So what's your solution? Do you have one? Eliminate Putin and all will right itself? That's as oversimplified as saying "remove Bush and the world will love America again." It takes time - EVERYTHING does. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We're talking about Russia, here, not the States! How come when people use America as positive examples and criticize Russia, others complain? When Russia is criticized, people state the negatives of the U.S. But, then, there are those people, Russians and non-Russians who want Americans to not stick their noses in.
I am arguing or suggesting considering Russia as a separate entity and the potential to pursue it's own democracy without constantly making comparisons to the United States. |
There are mostly Americans on this forum so it would make sense that things in here would lean towards that way.
| Quote: | | What would I do? For one, I would have economic experts examine and analyse various systems (Sweden, U.S., Canada, Japan etc.) and select the most positive and applicable out of those systems. I would examine global and economical trends and have incentives for Russians to engage in those |
As Casey so correctly put it in other threads, the best things that worked for other places and other people wont work for everyone. The countries you've mentioned have been wealthy, free-market democracies for decades and were built on free market democracy. 95% of the people working in the Russian government were once hard-core communist who have very little to almost no expertice in the free market system.
Russia has only been a free-market democracy for a scant 14 years. Before that a autoritarian Communist command economy and before that a medieval and feudalistic monarchy.
The reason why Russia is in a mess is because the IMF/World bank to people like you Mogsfan like to tell Russia "whats right" for it when it can solve its problems itself with a little time and the building of capital.
I remember no-one "advised" China to be where it is today and look where it is. There are still politicians from the "old-school" left and right telling each other what do to. The same for Singapore, Japan, Australia, etc....
My advice is just like what Casey advised, they should give Russia more no-strings attached aid or "Marshall Plan" for Russia and the CIS and let things work out for themselves. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are mostly Americans on this forum so it would make sense that things in here would lean towards that way. |
So? It's still a 'Russia' forum.
| Quote: | | Russia has only been a free-market democracy for a scant 14 years. Before that a autoritarian Communist command economy and before that a medieval and feudalistic monarchy. |
I know the history, thanks. Russia has been embroiled in some sort of authoritarian/communist/totalitarian/feudal/monarchic system of one or another. Obviously, the attitude of leaving Russia to their own devices IS NOT WORKING. There is still a following for Soviet/Communist times which is the system that brought them to their current situation in the first place. Anyway, I never asserted that the U.S. interfere; it was suggestions for Russians to consider. Not that I think some Russian politician is going to read WTR and jump on the idea or anything. So, I don't know what your problem is.
Comparing my opinion and ideas to the IMF has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard from you yet? I shouldn't even reply. Why reply to my posts if you don't like them? The IMF is a global economic organization that is thought to be corrupt, full of greedy corporate elites which serves themselves. They are not a charity organization. I merely offerred my ideas and most countries have prospered by following the cues of other countries. Japan became successful virtually overnight after being in a war. Japan imitated the best aspects of American economics and culture. There is nothing wrong with utilizing the ideas and methods of other countries and then molding them with your own stamp. Besides, they're not going to care if you accuse them of copying.
It has nothing to do with the IMF.
China has its own brand but don't think they didn't use other countries' ideas. A Russian politician has already been quoted that they ought to utilize others' ideas. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So? It's still a 'Russia' forum. |
Anyone can post anything they want in here as long as they don't violate the rules and/or offend people. This hasn't stopped you in the past, so why should things change because everyone happens to be disagreeing with you at the moment? 
| Quote: | | Japan became successful virtually overnight after being in a war. Japan imitated the best aspects of American economics and culture. |
As I stated, Japan was already a rich, wealthy, and well-developed economy with a well-developed infrastructure, and well developed civil sturcture before and during the war, as it was previosly democratic until the facsists took over. How else was it able to conduct the war in the manner that it did? How was it able to recover? It already knew what to do, but it needed (and used) American aid and support to recover which is what it really need.
Russia however, even during Soviet times, was not a rich, wealthy, and well-developed economy, as it was a planned, centralized, Marxist economy. So why in the world would it follow Canada: a prosperous free-market economy that was (and somewhat still is) a British dependency that has been that way since its inception?
| Quote: | | Obviously, the attitude of leaving Russia to their own devices IS NOT WORKING. There is still a following for Soviet/Communist times which is the system that brought them to their current situation in the first place. Anyway, I never asserted that the U.S. interfere; it was suggestions for Russians to consider. Not that I think some Russian politician is going to read WTR and jump on the idea or anything. So, I don't know what your problem is. |
But they just ended 80 years of Soviet Communism so of course theres still a following. Your point? Anyone who thought different was killed, exiled, or jailed. So of course theres a following --they are the only the ones left. Your point? Of course they will still employ methods that will still smack of communism. Your point? Despite this, Russia has been making a slow economic recovery in the last 4-7 years? Your point?
I never said the US should interfere. Maybe you should re-read what I said:
| Quote: | | As Casey so correctly put it in other threads, the best things that worked for other places and other people wont work for everyone. The countries you've mentioned have been wealthy, free-market democracies for decades and were built on free market democracy |
I put it in big bold letters for you so you can actually read it this time.
You don't seem to understand economics --something you've admitted in the past and yet you make suggestions to other countries? How ironic.......
| Quote: | Comparing my opinion and ideas to the IMF has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard from you yet? I shouldn't even reply. Why reply to my posts if you don't like them? The IMF is a global economic organization that is thought to be corrupt, full of greedy corporate elites which serves themselves. They are not a charity organization. I merely offerred my ideas and most countries have prospered by following the cues of other countries. Japan became successful virtually overnight after being in a war. Japan imitated the best aspects of American economics and culture. There is nothing wrong with utilizing the ideas and methods of other countries and then molding them with your own stamp. Besides, they're not going to care if you accuse them of copying.
It has nothing to do with the IMF.
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Short memory Mogs? Read what you and what we've all said about the IMF and Russia connection in here:
http://www.waytorussia.net/TalkLounge/viewtopic.php?t=2717&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=135
http://www.waytorussia.net/TalkLounge/viewtopic.php?t=3157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Besides, common sense says that Russia has no choice but to work with the IMF as they are poor. Your point?
| Quote: | | China has its own brand but don't think they didn't use other countries' ideas. A Russian politician has already been quoted that they ought to utilize others' ideas. |
They don't use others ideas. In fact the west has been trying to push China to devalue its currency against the Dollar and adapt other Western economic ideas to which the Chinese just ignore. In addition, they get billions in aid and investment from Japan and the west which is 50% the reason why they are so prosperous. I think something like that should be and could be done in Russia. They both are in similiar political and economic situations as both have a very similar modern history. |
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yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4903
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Just a point of fact. Canada has absolutey nothing to do with GBR. No dependency whatsoever. Canada is a sovereign nation and chooses it's own path always. Iraq war is a good example. we said no they didn't. |
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