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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
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e
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Actually that last link makes no mention of Abramovich.
So Mogs, is continusouly berating the Russian government part of your "language" lessons or no? Just curious.........
OK so Russia is "undemocratic" and "corrupt", may we have your solutions plz? REAL solutions I might add.
And to Mr Spice, just curious, you seem to rabidly hate the country of your native birth and say all sorts of negative things about it. Why? |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:46 am Post subject: |
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The last two links both mention Abramovich.
I'll skip the insult but anyone who is learning Russian can also discuss Russian politics or whatever they want.
I have given ideal solutions so I don't know what you are talking about when you state 'real.' None of our suggested 'solutions' would be utilized so why the sarcastic and cynical tone directed towards me? Nevermind, don't answer it.
I'm only answering you for other Russians to discuss/reply.
IF I was in charge, I would have all of the old Yeltsin guard be given ethics warnings (or have them sacked) and have ethics watchdogs and auditors assess politicians (and those, newly elected). None would have contrary material interests in order to guard against conflicts of interest. I would sell the state oil (and other) corporations to the public (i.e. middle class) so that many Joe Russians would have a share. Oil insiders and experts would be hired as the shareholders' consultants. The richest oligarchs would be assessed a tax and would be fully implemented. I don't mind tax-saving initiatives based on local investment. Penalties for environmental harms and ethics violations would be swiftly handed out. Experts would be hired for alternative fuels and economies for the future. The ethics watchdogs would oversee legal reforms. I would use the initial taxes/revenues to increase funding in social services including current lower paid jobs.
Russians want their own unique democracy (not America's) so there they go...  |
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renwan
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 204
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| <edited--please be sensible and polite.> |
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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| The solution is beyond our control, obviously. One would hope that some peer pressure from European countries, the US and other democratic nations to pressure Putin and his cornies to stick to democratic principles and not retaliate against rivals. But external pressure will do little. It's the russian people who should wise up and demand independent TV, free press and truly free elections. |
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Anya
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Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Agree. There had been no democracy under Yeltsin either. There had been the pressure to change and that resulted in the application of 'shock threapy' that turned everything upside down.
The temptation to belittle political rivals while straying from democratic principles is not new for any one 'democratic' country. Russia is no exception.
The people are wising up little by little. But I would be more worried about what would be Russia when there is no one who seems to be suitable to be the next president or to challenge Putin to it should he decide to run again. Even semi-independent or state-controlled press can be quite liberal at times. There isn't much of a buffer between them and the 'beep' of censoring when they happen to step on some crony's toes. However, there is still hope that they were not as afraid as they used to be.
Other countries can do nothing but to provide encouragement and help whenever needed--not pressure. It's the Russian people who must decide for themselves what kind of government and leader they want. It's their vote in the ballot box that counts, not what other countries think! I think Putin is doing a great job so far trying to make the transition from autocracy to democracy. Democracy is a progress, not an abstract perfection. I only hope that he will stay in power until someone who is suited to be the next president of democratic Russia will stand up and challenge him for the post. Then we can count on some real elections.
| MrSpice wrote: | | The solution is beyond our control, obviously. One would hope that some peer pressure from European countries, the US and other democratic nations to pressure Putin and his cornies to stick to democratic principles and not retaliate against rivals. But external pressure will do little. It's the russian people who should wise up and demand independent TV, free press and truly free elections. |
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Camrade
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Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 516
Location: Санкт-Петербург
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| If I were Putin I would have treated Kasyanov in a same way.... |
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MrSpice
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Camrade: That's because just like Putin you probably don't have respect for democracy and freedom of choice. The history honors those who often act contrary to their personal interest for the benefit of society. This is the worst and the most evil instinct on Putin's part to call his KGB friends and start an investigation of someone just because he criticized the government and the way it operates. This kind of behavior in addition to corrupt tax collection service and other undemocratic legal action will start takng toll on foreign and domestic investment. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Camrade: That's because just like Putin you probably don't have respect for democracy and freedom of choice. |
The fact that Camrade probably voted for Putin over all the other candiates in the last election underscores Camrades "respect for democracy and freedom of choice". I would say that it was freedom of choice that whoever Camrade voted for and the 70%+ of the Russian population voted for Putin.
In that regard, he has every right in the world to suggest that. Moreso than you Spice.
Last edited by e on Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Anya
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Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| We don't know about the real case behind Kasyanov. He probably may have said "Too the hell with it all, I did my job as a PM, Putin kicked me out without explaination and replaced me with an old fart. I might as well just do something for myself. A dacha sounds nice..." It would be a long shot to say that Putin does not respect democracy because he went after Kasyanov. I know people who have delt with Putin directly. He is not that kind of person you described at all. |
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Camrade
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I am not Putin fan or his supporter.
But I can say that democracy of european type is impossible in Russia... |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Other countries can do nothing but to provide encouragement and help whenever needed--not pressure. It's the Russian people who must decide for themselves what kind of government and leader they want. It's their vote in the ballot box that counts, not what other countries think! I think Putin is doing a great job so far trying to make the transition from autocracy to democracy. Democracy is a progress, not an abstract perfection. I only hope that he will stay in power until someone who is suited to be the next president of democratic Russia will stand up and challenge him for the post. Then we can count on some real elections. |
Anya, I think democracy is a process too but it's not going to automatically come about. Do you think it's possible that Russians are complacent with current conditions because of the past and the fact that democracy is often associated with reforms that resulted in so many negative or problematic changes? Such as the economic disparities and the appearance of a class in which they get rich off corruption and "favours?"
Imho, the old guard is the problem in Russia. The old style politicians and the lack of ethics are an obstacle to democratic progress. Democracy per se doesn't even truly exist in Western nations but the good part is that many people do know what it's about and what's needed. There is a desire to have democracy and many citizens demand these values and principles from their leaders. There is constant criticism and demands from the public albeit a small percentage usually, but it is still present. I don't think Russians are 'there' yet.
| Quote: | | But I can say that democracy of european type is impossible in Russia... |
Why, Camrade? |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Anya wrote: | | But I would be more worried about what would be Russia when there is no one who seems to be suitable to be the next president or to challenge Putin to it should he decide to run again. |
The values have to change. The public needs to demand things. This is one of the reasons impeding democratic progress in the so-called democratic countries. You think of the U.S., Canada, U.K. and other European nations when you think of democracies or those countries insist they're democracies. But, just consider so many people complaining about their democracies, about their voting systems and about the corruption rampant under various political administrations. Imho, the public doesn't demand enough from their politicians and they are not as principled or informed as they need to be in order for democracy to make more progress. Political parties and politicians get away with far too much since...they can.
Hopefully, Russians can realize these issues in their road to democracy but it's likely improbable they will since there's not really any country whose citizens who have. |
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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mogsfan wrote: | | Quote: | | But I can say that democracy of european type is impossible in Russia... |
Why, Camrade? |
Because Russia is not Europe! All the so-called "solutions" that the West loves to propose completely discount the fact that Russian culture and European culture are not synonymous. The USSR has only been gone for 13-14 years and yet everyone thinks that Russia is way off track because it's not a shining example of Western-style "democracy" and market economics. Here's a crazy idea - let the Russians bring this about at their pace, not the pace decided on by detached Westerners. |
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