Way to Russia Community and Forum

sturdjos · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: Russian cases - HELP!!!!

Hi all.

Once again, i need your help!!

Even though I have got the russain language learning course from Oxford &Cambridge University, and have studied hard at it, I am at a loss as to how the cases work!

I am learning German also, but this is no help, as I am having trouble in that regarding the cases as well!!

This site, which I thought would help, has only added to my troubles....

http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/index.html

Any help??

Much appreciated

Sturdjos

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

Retiring...

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

It seems that you are trying to learn an awful lot at once too fast. Especially two languages that are totally different from each other.

Unless you can process information that fast all at once, you aren't going to get very far, and just wind up forgetting eveything and becoming very confused like you are now. My suggestion would be to slow it down a bit and chose to learn one language at a time and at a much slower pace, like a child learning a first language. Practice it a lot too by finding and listening to native speakers and speaking to yourself at least a few sentences to yourself a day.Looking at a website or reading it from a book wont help. If you don't practice everyday, it'll fade from memory quickly because since you dont use it daily, your brain subconsiously sees it as useless information and begins to purge it from memory to make room for more useful info.

And if your gonna learn two languages simutaneously, but cannot process it dilligently, try learning two languages that are similar, or languages with the same root (ie: Italian and Spanish; Russian, Ukrainian) than two totally different languages. From experience, it is much easier.

sputnik · Lounge Lizard Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 141

E: Don't be too dramatic about it, most kids in Dutch high schools study 3 foreign languages at the same time. It can be done if it's done systematically. German cases were always hell for me, i never really learned them. Still, i can get around in Germany using the language. Many Germans are said to have difficulties with the cases as well.

The way we studied the cases in German was simple: just stamping them into the mind until you won't forget them anymore. It should work for the Russian ones too.

This method may not have worked perfectly for me in highschool, but i know so many people that still have all those grammar rules and rows of words that are an exception in their heads, even when they may not have spoken German for years.

Intourist · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure I understand the question. What do you mean you're at a loss ? Do you not know when to use the various cases ? Having problems matching endings to adjectives and nouns ? Need to know what the cases are ?

e's right to one extent, it's not something I think you'll be able to learn froma few answers in an internet message board. It's a complex topic that takes a while to learn off a blackboard and loads of actual practice.

Specify your question, however, and I'm sure a number of people here will be glad to give a brief answer or a few of the rough basics.

Anya · Lounge Lizard Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 157

sturdjos · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject: me being more specific.....

ok .... erm..... i cannot understand how the cases work .... with the endings etc...... its all too confusing - in russian.

and, e, i listen to russian radio for most of the time i'm online ..... europa plus..... so i'm not short of spoken russian to listen to, either.

once again..... thanks for the help.....

i hope i've been more specific in the question this time around.

sturdjos

Anya · Lounge Lizard Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 157

You're not alone. I've been studying it for about 2 years and it still does not come naturally to me.

I find that making tables (you can just copy them from a textbook) and sticking them in places where I will see them when I do my written or spoken exercises helps.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Give one or two examples cases that you don't understand. It's impossible to explain everything on cases in one post.

cook · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:02 am Post subject:

Intourist · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:59 pm Post subject:

Again, what do you mean you don't understand how they work ? In theory ? Or you're having trouble memorizing the different endings ?

In theory, for each noun or adjective part of a sentence, there's a case. Different words or prepositions take different cases depending on how the noun or adjective is used. The nominative case is used for the subject. Genitive to show possession, Dative for indirect objects or impersonal attributes towards the speaker, accusative for direct objects, Instrumental for when the noun is the object or instrument through which something was done. The prepositional shows location (in, at).

So in the sentence "I gave the book to John at the library." then "i" is nominative, "book" is accusative and "John" is dative, and "Library" is prepositional.

If it's endings, then I suggest drawing charts for endings of each case depending on gender (M,F,N) and singular and plural for both adjectives and nouns. Memorize it.

Hope that helps,
Intourist

init6 · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject:

Sturdjos, have you checked out MasterRussian yet? They are geared toward learning Russian, whereas WTR is geared toward travel issues. They have lots of great tutorials, tables and links to external sites.

From my own experience, I recommend the Pimsleur series of audio lessons for learning spoken Russian (if you can find, ahem, evaluation copies) and the "Teach Yourself: Beginner's Russian." It has a picture of a diver in Lake Baikal on the cover, and is printed by McGraw-Hill (in the US).

No audio lessons will teach you to read and spell correctly and, more importantly, being able to see the written word often helps your pronounciation since you can see the word and sound it out. This is the combo I use, and I carry my Russian book with me almost everywhere I go and try to read and re-read it at every spare moment.

I've been seriously slacking on audio lessons, but you can easily do 2-3 hours per day of them if you sit down and put your mind to it. I'm hoping to finish series one and be halfway through series two within two weeks by the time I arrive in Frankfurt. Confused

Practice, practice, practice. I'm going completely berserk and moving to Moscow for a year to study the language at Moscow State University but not everyone needs to take this drastic step. Razz

If you don't mind less conveniences, study Russian at a "provincial" university! Hardly anyone will speak English and you'll learn a lot faster. But that's the case with any language.

Good luck!

Mei-Nu · Frequent Guest Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 42

have to disagree with e when he says that learning two similar languages at the same time is better than 2 totally different languages. and then especially when it comes to Slavic languages. I know both Russian and Czech and I must say that there are some nasty differences in grammar that will only confuse you more and more. (for example, the Acc pl zivotny in Czech does not switch to the Genitve like in Russian, Czech has in plural different endings according to the gender, while Russian has all the same.) I was as lucky as to start studying Czech when I was already fluent in Russian. I know many people who study Slavonic Studies at university in my country and study both languages at the same time. I haven`t met one of them who speaks or Russian or Czech fluently. they speak a lamguage combined with parts of those both languages.

wavetossed · WayToRussified Joined: 27 Jun 2004 Posts: 339

The fact is that Russian cases are easy to learn because there are only 6 true cases and 2 extra ones that appear in special circumstances. The regular cases are defined by some simple rules like endings, animate genitive, spelling rules, etc. However, these rules are not easy to describe by using tables of declensions like you can in Latin.

That's where the problem begins. Many teachers and books try to explain Russian cases in a latinate way. The best way around this problem is to go back to basics once a month and read a DIFFERENT beginners text that explains the cases. By reading the same thing described in different ways by different people you will come to a clearer understanding. In fact, there are several sites on the Internet which cover this. You can find them by googling for Russian grammar or russian declension.

Once you can read Russian at about a high school level, then go to Russia and look for books written in Russian. Or do the same searches as above but use rambler.ru and words like russkiy and padezh.

In particular, the spelling rules really need to be thoroughly learned, perhaps through a series of examples. That way you will understand why krysha becomes kryshey and zhena becomes zheney. You won't need dozens of tables that vary slightly. As far as people and animals, it is just as valid to say that the accusative case of muzh is muzh and that it is never used because the genitive is always used with inanimate beings. Again, thinking this way reduces the number of declension tables that you need to memorize.

Mal'chika uvidel rebyonok.
Mal'chik uvidel rebyonka.
It makes perfect sense. In both sentences the boy is the most important theme in the sentence so he comes first. In sentence one, the boy is seeing and in sentence two he is being seen. When you understand that Russian sentences put the most important thing first then you can see why animate masculine nouns must use a distinct ending to indicate whether they are subject or object of the verb.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Mei Nu: Czech and Russian may be in the same language family, but to call them that similar to the point where you can learn them at the same time would be a mistake. Czech is Latinized. It also got rid of past tenses and its more verbal.

But you make interesting points and observations nonetheless.

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