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Two-tiered pricing of tourist places Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Russian Contexts, Myths and Truths

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Paul-Holmes Lounge Wizard Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 1073	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: Two-tiered pricing of tourist places Last edited by Paul-Holmes on Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Intourist Talk Show Host Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 245 Location: Moscow	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Vic wrote: Yeah, and they are damn right to do so. Let me explain briefly: The tickets for Russian citizens are cheaper because ALL theaters, museums*, historical locations are funded by the Ministry of Culture of the Russian Federation. The ministry gets their money from the State Budget, the State Budget gets it's money from the taxpayers - Russian citizens. Comprende, Cyndy? Vic, Wait a sec. Museums here are funded pretty much the way they are the whole world over. Donations and taxes. Of the places I've been in around the world, Russia is, to date, the only place that charges two different prices, based solely on nationality (a pretty textbook term of racism). I understand that the State prefers to call it "subsidizing" for Russian citizens (since they pay taxes and hence already support it), but did you know that many of Russia's more prominent museums receive sizeable support from foreign donations ? Ever heard of "American Friends of the Hermitage Museum organization ? How 'bout German Friends of the Hermitage Museum ? Still think foreigners should pay more ? Ever think about what percentage of the Russian populace actually pays 100% of the 13% income tax ? Still think Russians should pay less ? Food for thought, Intourist
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:22 pm    Post subject: Yes, Intourist, I think we still should get the subsidised tickets. I have heard of the organisations that you speak of, but the majority of the funding comes from the state. The only thing that they could possibly do to FURTHER IMPROVE this system is give the members of those organisations FREE passes or SUBSIDISED (at the Russian rate) but only for members, not ALL Germans or ALL Americans - that is rediculous. About your second point - in this case we are relying on the honour system, let the tax police do their jobs, the museums theirs. They are still citizens of the Russian Federation and on the territory of the Russian Federation they are treated equally. Demanding tax receipts at the ticket booth would be a little too much, don't you think ? Paul, I agree with you. I have not seen anyone sit on anything in Peterhoff, but I believe you and what can I say - there are jackasses wherever you go . Vic
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Intourist Talk Show Host Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 245 Location: Moscow	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Vic wrote: Yes, Intourist, I think we still should get the subsidised tickets. I have heard of the organisations that you speak of, but the majority of the funding comes from the state. The only thing that they could possibly do to FURTHER IMPROVE this system is give the members of those organisations FREE passes or SUBSIDISED (at the Russian rate) but only for members, not ALL Germans or ALL Americans - that is rediculous. About your second point - in this case we are relying on the honour system, let the tax police do their jobs, the museums theirs. They are still citizens of the Russian Federation and on the territory of the Russian Federation they are treated equally. Demanding tax receipts at the ticket booth would be a little too much, don't you think Vic, I'm not advocating anything silly like checking income taxes at the booth, but to argue for tax-payer subsidies in a country where tax avoidance is chronic and epidemic is nothing short of ludicrous when you consider that the State (which supports a majority of the Hermitage's budget) routinely provides less than half of what the museum budgeted. Honor systems only work when the majority abide by them. Many Russians have long become used to State freebies without ever really contributing to the system itself. It's nice to have your cake and eat it, too. Add to that, the fact that current director Boris Piotrovsky has embarked on a program of attracting international donations via a system of sattelite galleries accross Europe and the US, then, it seems pretty clear that ticket 'subsidies' are that in name only. It's really discrimination any other way you slice it. Regards, Intourist
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Intourist is right on. No other country discriminates between citizens and tourists in admission prices for museums and theatres. It is rascist so get off your high horse Vic. I would not say that I felt like an honored guest while in St. Petersburg. Nor do I agree that tourists must feel like an honored guest. Remember Vic's last trip to US. Did he feel like an honored guest? Should he have Paul?
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: That's because Vic hates anyone who isn't Russian or doesn't subscribe to his belief system. cyndy22 wrote: Intourist is right on. No other country discriminates between citizens and tourists in admission prices for museums and theatres. It is rascist so get off your high horse Vic. I would not say that I felt like an honored guest while in St. Petersburg. Nor do I agree that tourists must feel like an honored guest. Remember Vic's last trip to US. Did he feel like an honored guest? Should he have Paul?
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MrSpice Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: cyndy: Not to defend this practice, but what you said is not really true. Italy is one country I mentioned before where admission prices to museums are much more expensive for tourists. Also, many other less developed countries have similar policies at national museums to make sure their citizens can afford that. To be honest, I don't see it as a big problem. As long as the price is not prohibitive and not outrageous and tourists can afford it, I think we can live with that. You have to put yourself in museum's shoes - if they charge low russian prices, they won't be able to maintain their valuable collections and pay their staff. If they charge competitive prices for everyone, many russians won't be able to attend the museum. On a personal note - during my last visit to Florence I felt mu less welcome there than in St Petersburg. The city has no benches to sit on, most restaurants in the center are overpriced and rather bad. Ufizzi museum had a 4-hour line to get in (fortunately I reserved tickets in advance so I did not have stay in line in sweltering heat). And inside the museum it's hot since air-conditioning was really bad. I personally think St Petersburg is much better than Florence. Secondly, all the price differences are true of only museums and theaters. The private sector has the same prices for everyone. And, to be honest, it's easy to purchase tickets at "russian" prices. Do it the smart way and ask a russian to buy tickets for you. The russian way of thinking is: "just because someone wants you to pay a lot of money, does not mean you should" :)
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Vic wrote: Yeah, and they are damn right to do so. Let me explain briefly: The tickets for Russian citizens are cheaper because ALL theaters, museums*, historical locations are funded by the Ministry of Culture of the Russian Federation. The ministry gets their money from the State Budget, the State Budget gets it's money from the taxpayers - Russian citizens. Comprende, Cyndy? Vic, I don't think you're thinking this through. :-/ Hey, don't you know anything about customer service? I don't think you do. Charging extra to foreigners is absolutely insane. Why can't you just admit that the state is just trying to get more money from the rich tourists and be done with it? In theory, though, it is absolutely dumb from a tourism and PR p.o.v. Yeah, what was then subsequently posted about retrieving local Russian taxes/revenues should be the priority. Of course, they are free to do what they want but it's a dumb idea. Not the best way to encourage tourism. Last edited by Mogsfan on Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject: It is incredibly ridiculous to call two-tiered pricing "racist" or even discriminatory. As mentioned by MrSpice (we're agreeing a lot more these days ), two-tiered pricing is VERY common. Ever hear of student discounts? Senior discounts? Military discounts? Whoopsy, yeah, that's two-tiered pricing. Cuba, for obvious reasons, has an almost entirely two-tiered economy. Certain cabs are for tourists at one price, certain for citizens at another. Not a good example of why it's great, but it's an example of how the Russian system is nothing compared to some countries. I'm going to Russia on a student visa, hence I am able to pay Russian prices for museum entrance and I pay reduced prices for metro passes. Am I being discriminated in favor of? Hardly. The Russian government realizes that students are far from wealthy people, and decided to help us out a little. What a bunch of bastards. As Spice also mentioned, the admission prices ARE NOT out of reach. If you have the money to travel to Russia and pay $100+/night for a hotel, you can afford $15-$20 for an ENTIRE DAY of sightseeing and viewing Russia's cultural treasures. Most Russians can't afford R600 ($20) for museum entrance when their monthly income is R8000 (US$267)! The average wage of Moscow is a lot higher at R22,500 ($750), but that number is skewed due to New Russian income. Either way, there is no reason why Russians shouldn't pay a far lower price - they make far less money than the average tourist. Just excercise a little social responsibility and pay your fair share so that next time you come to Russia the museum or theater will still be open.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:13 pm    Post subject: So, Spice, what you're saying is, theoretically, it may not even work, the disparity in prices? You just need to find an accomodating Russian to pretend you're all Russians and buy the tix for you. MrSpice wrote: cyndy: Not to defend this practice, but what you said is not really true. Italy is one country I mentioned before where admission prices to museums are much more expensive for tourists. Also, many other less developed countries have similar policies at national museums to make sure their citizens can afford that. To be honest, I don't see it as a big problem. As long as the price is not prohibitive and not outrageous and tourists can afford it, I think we can live with that. You have to put yourself in museum's shoes - if they charge low russian prices, they won't be able to maintain their valuable collections and pay their staff. If they charge competitive prices for everyone, many russians won't be able to attend the museum. On a personal note - during my last visit to Florence I felt mu less welcome there than in St Petersburg. The city has no benches to sit on, most restaurants in the center are overpriced and rather bad. Ufizzi museum had a 4-hour line to get in (fortunately I reserved tickets in advance so I did not have stay in line in sweltering heat). And inside the museum it's hot since air-conditioning was really bad. I personally think St Petersburg is much better than Florence. Secondly, all the price differences are true of only museums and theaters. The private sector has the same prices for everyone. And, to be honest, it's easy to purchase tickets at "russian" prices. Do it the smart way and ask a russian to buy tickets for you. The russian way of thinking is: "just because someone wants you to pay a lot of money, does not mean you should"
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:22 pm    Post subject: It is discriminatory. Duh. You're comparing it to student discounts?!? You call yourself a student, Casey? It's not enough you spout off about Cuba without ever being there or even talking to a Cuban. At least, regarding Russian, I have spoken to many Russians. Unless they're all pretending to be Russian or live in Russia or somehow they've picked up the Russian language, I am pretty certain they are Russian. How many Cubans have you talked to? Anyway, student discounts are not comparable to ALL foreigners (except students, apparently) paying the higher price. Yes, students are often given discounts because it's assumed they are on a tight budget and PAYING FOR SCHOOL. But, some tourists are on a budget sometimes, too. Not all are CEOs or corporate managers who can easily afford higher prices. I'm sure the disparity works for Russia but I wonder why they don't apply the same tax revenue strategy to their own populace. init6 wrote: It is incredibly ridiculous to call two-tiered pricing "racist" or even discriminatory. As mentioned by MrSpice (we're agreeing a lot more these days ), two-tiered pricing is VERY common. Ever hear of student discounts? Senior discounts? Military discounts? Whoopsy, yeah, that's two-tiered pricing. Cuba, for obvious reasons, has an almost entirely two-tiered economy. Certain cabs are for tourists at one price, certain for citizens at another. Not a good example of why it's great, but it's an example of how the Russian system is nothing compared to some countries. I'm going to Russia on a student visa, hence I am able to pay Russian prices for museum entrance and I pay reduced prices for metro passes. Am I being discriminated in favor of? Hardly. The Russian government realizes that students are far from wealthy people, and decided to help us out a little. What a bunch of bastards. As Spice also mentioned, the admission prices ARE NOT out of reach. If you have the money to travel to Russia and pay $100+/night for a hotel, you can afford $15-$20 for an ENTIRE DAY of sightseeing and viewing Russia's cultural treasures. Most Russians can't afford R600 ($20) for museum entrance when their monthly income is R8000 (US$267)! The average wage of Moscow is a lot higher at R22,500 ($750), but that number is skewed due to New Russian income. Either way, there is no reason why Russians shouldn't pay a far lower price - they make far less money than the average tourist. Just excercise a little social responsibility and pay your fair share so that next time you come to Russia the museum or theater will still be open.
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MrSpice Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: And I would like to add another thing - I paid almost $20 to visit Ufizzi gallery in Florence that in my opinion does not even compare to Hermitage. In London, all museums are free for everyone which is great. In Paris, the Louvre is quite expensive, don't remember how much that is. So who cares whether you are paying a lot of money because you are a tourist or because everyone else is paying less? Money is money. If everyone else paid $20, would that make you feel better? :) And I still don't understand why Cyndy paid higher prices when she had a russian friend Natasha accompanying her everywhere. Couldn't she buy all tickets for Cyndy? Did she feel guilty if she did not use this valuable resource? Russians rules are there to be broken. If I was an american who did not speak russian, I would find someone to buy tickets for me anyway. Take any guy from the street, give him a couple of dollars and he buys "russian-priced" tickets for you. Very simple.
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:31 pm    Post subject: MrSpice wrote: If everyone else paid $20, would that make you feel better? That's the sad thing - yes, they would! It's the same old "me first" attitude (and it's hardly restricted to the US). And, I must agree, that Russian rules are there to be broken. That's one of the things I like - not the fact that rules are broken, but that it requires a little creativity, innovation, being a bit assertive to do so. I freely admit to being a scofflaw, so it works well for me. Besides, what good sovok would ever pay full price for a museum?! Note: Effective 26 July, 2005 I will no longer be feeding trolls.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:34 pm    Post subject: Quote: If I was an american who did not speak russian, I would find someone to buy tickets for me anyway. Take any guy from the street, give him a couple of dollars and he buys "russian-priced" tickets for you. Very simple. I wouldn't do that if I was a tourist in Russia. Not unless I was on a very tight budget and had no choice if I wanted to see a particular museum or site. I definitely wouldn't do it for getting in a theater. I could watch a movie somewhere else or buy the Russian movie. I really like museums and historical sites so I would definitely have to visit them if I was there. Russians already have a lot of rule-breakers, swindlers, and corrupt people running around without adding to it. I just think the system is faulty and like what you said encourages ways of getting out of having to pay extra.
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:37 pm    Post subject: This forum obviously has great difficulty hearing any cricism of beloved Russia. For the record, I visited museums in Italy including the Uffizi, and like France, museums did not even charge me because of the wheelchair. There was no 4 hr. line only a 20 minute wait to enter. When I was in Pushkin, and buying tickets to see Alexander II palace, I asked the clerk if I could pay half price because I could not access the second floor. Absolutely not. She ashed her superior and no go. So I sat and waited while my family and friend went. Mr. Spice you may think all tourists are made of money but I assure you we are not as wealthy as you might think. I put this trip on plastic because I really wanted to go. But my real point here is that why can't some of you people accept that St. Petersburg/Russia is not as hospitable to tourists as so many of you think? It is possible for tourists to have both good and bad experiences in the same trip.
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