Way to Russia Talk Lounge

cyndy22 · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:12 am Post subject:

Been more places around the world, done more, lived more, educated more , had more life experiences good and bad than You Case, I guarantee it. sorry if if bruises your ego.

init6 · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:

Honey, it's not a contest. I'm not the one who needs to feel superior. Now let's stick to the topic, shall we? Wink

cyndy22 · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:48 am Post subject:

What's wrong sweetie, can't think of any place you have ventured outside Florida than shangri la in Eastern Germany where you had some romantic notion that it was cool to stay for a week or two in a soviet flat? Hey even the German family has better instincts than you- they now have their own house as you said!

Anya · Lounge Lizard Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 157

So when are you done inflating your own ego, cyndy, after bruising Casey's?

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3436

cyndy: You do come off as someone who just loves "suburbia" and does not understand that people living in urban environments may prefer that lifestyle due to the nature of life in the city. Not all apartments in Russia are "soviet-style flats". Russia is a very urban country unlike the most of the US. The same can be said about many European countries, even highly developed european countries. You can see lots of tall apartment buildings in Paris, for example. I have not seen a single private house in Paris - and I have been there 3 times, and visited many remote areas of the city where few tourists ever visit. The same is mostly true of London. Some well-to-do people do live in private houses on the outskirts of London. But I worked in London for a month and I know that most people I worked with (all middle-class Londoners), lived in apartments located in large and often tall apartment buildings. I myself live in Brooklyn in New York City which is, believe it or not, also part of the United States. 90% of people I know live in apartments here. Private houses are too expensive for most people, even people that make decent money. And apartments in Manhattan start at 500K for small studio and go up. And I can tell you that apartment I lived in in St Petersburg was just a tad smaller than the one I live in now in Brooklyn. I cannot say that life was luxurious, but it was not terrible in terms of the size of the apartment.

If you wacthed "S*x in the City" or Seinfeld, you can see what it means to live in an apartment.

I don't think the fact that most people live in apartments in large russian cities has anything to do with Soviet Mentality and everything to do with affordability of space. And the undeveloped land - when it is developed - is likely to be used to be large apartment buildings to satisfy the demand for housing. If they built up private houses "massachussetts" style in St Petersburg that is home to 5 million people, they will be so expensive that very few people will be able to afford them.

And this is true of any large city anywhere, not only russia.

You seem to approach those kinds of questions with "soviet-style" certainty as if you cannot detatch yourself from your small-city lifestyle and understand that things can be different for people living in a large, populated city. I know many people in New York that bought small apartments in Manhatttan to be close to work and nightlife and to avoid extensive commute for the price that could pay for a relatively large private house in the suburbia.

Anya · Lounge Lizard Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 157

Well said MrSpice! Many Russian cities are very urbanized. I myself live in a flat, and currently I live in one of the new residential areas that is quite pleasant and populated mostly by the 'new generation' and young families, and all living space are in high-rise apartments. Some of our lucky neighbours have the odd family dacha outside city limits to spend the weekends, but for most part the bulk of us don't have that luxury place to escape city life. Some months ago I used to ride at a livery yard out in a village in the Moscow region every week, and I do enjoy the drive out and watch all the urban areas fade away and watch forests and wooden dachas come into view.

Rick · Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject:

This discussion is not really going anywhere.. the differences between cities are conditioned by natural, cultural and technological parameters. Under some circumstances one of these factors will dominate the others, but in general they all play their roles.

If you get these parameters together, you will understand why a particular city is as it is. It's not just a matter of preferences of inhabitants, of technical possibilities, or impossibilities, of the climate and the soil the city is built on.

Some of you mentioned some of the important aspects, but you all seem to make the mistake to make the one thing that you bring forward look like it determines the way Russian or even 'european' (whatever that may be) cities differ from American cities (that have big differences among them too...).

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3436

The reason why it is not exactly so in the case of Russia, Rick, is because Russia used to be a socialist state where the way people lived was not determined by market demand, but by planning by the party leaders. So, even if people wanted to live a different way, they would not be able to. There were no home loans, no mortgages, no developers. The government gave people apartmen based on connections, seniority, and other obscure rules.

cyndy22 · Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject:

Sex in the City and Seinfield were good shows but the lives of single people living in apt. buildings in NYC ON TELEVISION SHOWS are hardly representaive of the masses. And further, these characters have far more glamprous lives than most New Yorkers, Moscovites or residents of Piter.

Rick has made the most sense of this topic which frankly is getting old.

Rick · Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject:

MrSpice: i don't think you read my post well. all i am pointing out with my post, is that settlements around the world , even though they are complex constructions by nature, can easily be understood in their functioning if you analyze them systematically.

i am not talking about russian apartment blocks or city layout in particular here. or trying to explain why they are as they are. simply saying that there is nothing 'special' about this and it can be understood along the same lines cities in other societies can be understood.

your point about the way apartments were given out in soviet times, is interesting but has hardly anything to do with my post. it gives a good illustration on one of the determining aspects though: the cultural context in which these cities were planned.
i am not saying this discussion should be abandoned because it is useless, but i am saying that we should refrain from giving simplistic 'answers', emerging from a one-sided view of the problem.

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1601

Moscow, for example, as a growing city, has a mix of different planning styles. From inside the Garden Ring you have the city of the czars--small, old, charming buildings a few stories high, many side-streets and narrow streets that quickly turn into a maze (!!), and every now and then you find a the boxy Soviet building or eyesore Cool

, or another eyesore from modern times belonging to some oligarch's office building. The center of Moscow is a mix of residential and up-scale commercial land use.

Outside the garden ring gives way to more Soviet 'planning' (which may look less messy to the eye, but blightens quickly as it looks drab, boring, too uniform etc.) or whatever's left of it and you get those characteristic apartment blocks made of brick usually. Here it's common to have big zones of residential areas, industrial areas, the occasional 'business center' etc.

Even further on some sectors that have not been developed during those times you'll find some panel-housing blocks that are sometimes more modern and cleaner looking. These areas do show more sense in city/town planning. The areas look neater and brighter, and commerical activity is encouraged to serve the large residential population in high-rise apartments.

I think it's a pretty classic example of Homer Hoyts Sector Model

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Homer Hoyt? Who's that? Was he Communist? Foreigner?

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1601

use your google skills!

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3436

cyndy: Obviously the main characters of Seinfeld had a more glamorous life than most people living anywhere. If they lived a simple life, there would be nothing to see on those shows. But the way of life depicted on that show is somewhat similar to how many people live in New York and in large russian cities. I.e., social environment, small apartments, neighbors you know, etc. It's not always like that, of course.

Rick · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject:

'Communist flat blocks'
A guessing game: in which city are they?