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Beto

Hi all

I'd like to know if the most part of russian people still live in those huge block of flats of the communist era. I know that russian economy has been rising since the economic collapse of 1998, ant that the middle class is growing too. So it makes sense to me that some of them can afford for a house. However, it still seems that the most part of the russian people dont have that possibility.

Thanks

Beto

init6 · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject:

Houses are insanely expensive, and very uncommon, throughout most of Europe. In any large Russian city the bulk of the populace will live in Soviet flats. It seems that in Siberia, however, untouched in some cases by the "industrial hand," there are still a lot of the old wooden houses.

But "emerging middle class" or not, the bulk of the entire European continent lives in apartments. Myself, even being from suburban Florida, I'm not a "house and car" guy, rather I am an "apartment and public transit" guy.

Germany, for example - when I stayed there in 1996 with a family in Eastern Germany they (and I) lived in a Soviet flat. It was very small, but comfortable and I enjoyed every minute of it. In the last nine years they have purchased a house somewhere, which I will see in six days when I arrive in Germany. This is a BIG deal, even for Germans.

cyndy22 · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject:

El Casey many Europeans also live in houses. In Poland and Russia I know that more eastern European countries however the majority do still live in huge soviet style flats. It is quite insane when you see how much land there is undeveloped. This is true in Estonia too which is the most westernized of the former soviet republics. People are comfortable in these "projects" and are afraid to venture into being a home owner for the most part. Part of soviet mentality.

overseas_expat · VIP Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 741 Location: Moscow

Intourist

It's not so much as to whether they can afford them or not, as to feasibility. Russian cities have little established infrastructure between them. As a result, suburbs are under-developed and less comfortable places to locate to. Poor roads, few stores, shoddy telephones and water supply, etc.

Unlike in the US, for example, where people strive to get out of the city and into a free-standing house of their own, many people here strive to stay IN the city. That's where everything is. As a result, the only choice you have is an apartment (as there's little room to build hundreds or thousands of houses in the middle of a city).

Also a factor is land, and how much has been privatized. A lot of the choice and more scenic places for houses are still government property. So on top of all the other inconveniances, if you do decide to build a house, it probably won't be the prettiest place in the world.

There are some exceptions, obviously. Of late, a lot of rich 'New Russians' consider it prestigous to have a house outside in the country, but they end up taking a lot of the amenities issues into their own hands or being not too far from the city. The country wooden Russian 'ginger-bread' houses do exist (as Casey pointed out), but these remain largely unchanged or renovated from pre-tsarist times. No running water, electricity, etc. Sometimes they house 3 to 4 families and are quite dilapidated.

Generally, yeah, it's a Soviet efficiency mentality. It was easier, less expensive and more convenient to have everyone in an apartment block. It's gonna take a while for that to change.

Camrade · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject:

2init6

Siberia is an extremely reach region Smile

in cities like Hanty-Mansyisk people live in modern houses which were built during previous 10 years... but somewhere in the Far East - there are lots of soviet blocks of flats=)

init6 · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject:

Indeed, I neglected to mention the different mentality. In Europe you have city and you have countryside. There is really no such thing as "suburbia." Suburbia is one of the worst "crimes" that American urban planners ever committed. We've paved over as many unspoiled natural areas as possible, many of them arable land.

I understand why suburbia was envisaged and created but its long-term effects were not thought through before we started paving over crop land and building millions of new homes that, in all honesty, just weren't necessary.

And now, as real estate prices in the US surge, I've become concerned how people are paying for these new houses. When wages have completely stagnated over the last 25 years the only way to do it is to pour a family's income (the majority) into the mortgage payment and live off of credit cards. And that's exactly what they're doing.

If it's not obvious by now, this "push" in America that everyone should own their own home is utterly ridiculous (in my opinion). I'm pro-apartment and pro-public transit. Not everyone needs a house and a car. Leave that to people who shop at Wal-Mart and vote Bush. Wink

init6 · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject:

cyndy22 · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject:

El Casey,
I have to laugh at some of your posts such as on this thread. First you claim that suburbs are non existant outside of US. LOL. And that suburbs are the evil crimes of urban planners. You need to get a grip man. Many people just love their bedroom communities or in Piter they refer to them as sleeping communities, though in Piter they aren't as fortunate to have homes. Even bedroom suburban communities in Russia still have soviet huge concrete flats.

Your posts show just how discrimanatory you are toward US. And the ironic truth is that you Florida boy seemingly fail to appreciate modern comforts, privatized housing, ownership of cars, good food and fresh fruits and veggies and inexpensive stores even Walmart. You do realize Casey that most Russians would jump for joy to trade places with you! So would others from most parts of the world.

Anya · Lounge Lizard Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 157

We ought to wait for Rick to get on this thread. He knows his city-planning stuff!

What you can do is to run a search on real-estate sites and see what is out there on the market--and they usually state the year of construction. The last timeI looked it seems that there are plenty of commie-era flats, even some stanlinist era ones (I don't mean the 'remonted' ones in the skyscrapers!).

The only Russian 'house' (not a weekend dacha, mind you, but a house that's it's lived in all year round) I've been to was my husband's grandparents' house in a village in Krasnodar region. It's old, but self-sufficient and they're very green-fingered people and their garden kept generations of the family fed with delicious jams, preserves, home-made wine etc.

init6 · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:01 pm Post subject:

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

The funny thing is, me, Mr. Spice, Rick, and Paul holmes discussed this same subject to death with Cyndy only a few weeks ago in a previous thread. For some reason, she still didn't get it.

http://www.waytorussia.net/TalkLounge/viewtopic.php?p=20618#20618

And, repeating Casey and Mr.Spice in that other thread, Europe is smaller, more densely populated, has older building stock, not to mention the infrastructure network is older and very different, so American style suburbs that Cyndy advocates is impossible, if not impractical.

cyndy22 · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:45 am Post subject:

In due repect Anya, Rick is an architect in Holland as far as I know. While I am sure that Ricks knows aLOT RE urban planning etc,, since he lives and works in Holland, you can not expect him to have expertise in Russia.
El Casey knows didley about housing in Russia or even US, though he tries to talk a good game. So, Casey how much public housing and transportation have you committed yourself to in Florida? LOL .

E knows far less but most of us know that. bIGGER LOL!

init6 · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:

There's no such thing as decent public transportation here. It seems like you just haven't experienced much public transit, period, much less quality transit. The intra-state train has been voted down several times and our bus system is absolutely laughable. Bus stops are several miles apart and as long as you want to go to the mall or the beach, you're good to go - not anywhere else.

Cyndy, honestly, where do you get off presuming to know what I, or Rick, know about anything? You're not exactly a fount of knowledge yourself, y'know. Rolling Eyes

cyndy22 · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:

El Casey you may think you are on a noble self righteous cause to lead a good socialist life in Russia or at least get started there. Your imagination and ego is bigger than your d280. or your head which I guess is more or less equivalent.

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