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MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

mister: In the US, there are lots of ethnic neighborhoods. New York City is a place where you can walk 2 blocks and see a completely different ethnic neighborhood. But it seems like people here are more tolerant in general than they are in Europe. Even though Italians live in one area of the see and Pakistani live in their little area with their ethnic shops and restaurants, somehow they all blend in together and you don't see much tension on the basic of race or ethnicity here. For example, in Queens, people speak 170 languages. There are large group go Greek, Russian, Indian, Pakistani and other immigrants. But you don't have this sense of isolation and abandonment you get in similar areas in Europe...

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

e,

You never cease to amaze me..

Firstly Norteno/Surenos were formed due to geographical variation(a pathetically small one I might add), not ethnic divisions as you suggest. I have no idea where you got this from.

Nevertheless..

Blacks hated the whites, the Italians, the Latinos, Arab/Pakistani and the Chinese.

Latinos hated the blacks, the Italians, the Arabs, the Jews and the whites.

Chinese hated the whites, the blacks, Jews and Latinos.

Arabs hated the Jews, Jews hated the Arabs, and Italians hated the blacks, the Arabs, the Chinese and the Latinos.

Everybody hated the blacks, including themselves, especially the Blood and Crips(stolen from Latinos), who based or at least certainly blamed their hatred on the whites.

And then of course, we have Nation of Islam..

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

..And the reason you don't recall it being this bad in Europe is because we weren't talking about the state that gave the world Hollywood.

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:33 am Post subject:

It is interesting to see so many twists and turns posted to the original post on this thread. Rick to his credit, professionalism and sensibility provided the forum with a new look in terms of architecture, planning, etc. That is all good. Of course theres always a movement with respect to art, architecture etc, and all creative movements do become globalized even if only by small examples.

Mr. Spice your colors are shining clearly. It is amazing to me that you: a)think that NYC is so much more tolerant -than other European cities LOL; b) paradoxically think that most of the buildings in your home state of New York, as well as ALL major US cities HAVE more Communist style ugly apt complexes; and c) especially seem to think that if government subsidizes the poor who can not afford market priced housing, they will only take advantage.

Shame on you Mr. Spice. I gather that you have been extremely fortunate economically in terms of immigrating to NY 10 YRS. AGO. I am pretty sure you and FAMILY benefitted from such programs as Mass Health or Medicaid; Food Stamps, AND WHAT OTHER social welfare services the US provides. Fortunately for you, you were also able to enroll in college and complete a business degree, most likely at minor expense due to your immigrant status.

So now you have lived in the US for 10 years. Obviously you have a good paying job and are able to travel more than 90% of Americans. Good for you! You have probably in the past 10 years traveled more than myself. Yet you are so convinced that government is detrimental and will only make indigent people to become more needy, dependant and criminal. Rolling Eyes

I have digressed. The original post questionned the extent of communist soviet housing complexes in Russia. Oh yes, they are there and are likely to be prominant Russian and Former Soviet Republic housing in this part of thwe world for mant years.

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

I apologize for the apparent digression..

My point was really just aimed at e, who seems to jump at any chance of highlighting fantasy racism, using the back up of Mr whizzz's comments when in actuality what whizzz said was:

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Cyndy: 1) I don't just say that NYC is more tolerant than most cities in Europe - many surveys make that point in America, not only in NYC, people on average are more tolrant towards immigrants and other ethnic groups. And you can look at the wave of anti-immigrant regulations and laws that sprang up in Europe in the last few years to see what elected officials there do. And it's understandable since there's much less diversity in Europe where in most countries, more than 90% belong to one dominant ethnic group. Look at a wave of right wing parties that gain parliament seats. You should educate yoruself on the subject and can keep that LOL to yourself.

2) Why don't you come to New York and explore the city - not just the museum mile and Times Square and all other touristy places, but go to Brooklyn and Queens and the Bronx. More than 600,000 in NYC living in public housing. Since you wanted to visit Brighton Beach, why don't you also visit Coney Island - another famous attraction just 1 mile away. There are hoards of public housing projects in Coney Island. Why don't you research the subject before making any kind of statement on it. You live in a small community in Massachussets and have no idea what it's like to live in a public housing project and don't know what they mean for those neigborhoods. So again, research the subject, visit those areas and then we will talk. Also, many of the public housing projects are not for the poor, but for those earning below certain level. There's enormous amkount of corruption going on. Many russians (and russians know how to do it), bribed manajers of those projects. There are several huge buildings ajacent to Brighton Beach that are now 90-95% russian. It's an open secret that 25-30K is what makes this kind of housing happen for many people. I did not say that all programs that help the poor were bad. I think the best programs are the ones that provide opportunity (like education grants) and medical care to those that don't have it. I was only speaking of public housing that breeds poverty, lack of responsibility and corruption.

3) My economic fortune only came from hard work, and has nothing to do with the government. My immigrant status helped me in one way only - I was eligible for federal the Pell grant and the state grant here in NY State just like the US citizens. But only most Americans, I did not have parents that could help me. And since I chose a private university, most of the money came from loans and scholarships anyway. I was paying my loans for several years and lived with my parents to make sure I can pay them off quickly. I travelled more than yourself because a) I have 4 weeks of vacation and I love to travel b) I make decent living because I chose a marketable profession and I studied well (Computer Science, not business). While my american college buddies partied and studied fields that did not have much practical application, I studied hard, got an internship and had 2 offers upon graduation. My wife did well in high school, got a full scholarship at a private university, graduated first in class and went on to law school - she paid off her loans just recently after 4 years of hard work (her usual work day is 10-11 hours). She also came here with nothing 15 years ago. Both of us commute to work more than 1 hour one way every day.

4) Remember what Ronald Reagan used to say: "Government is not a solution to our problem, government IS the problem".

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject:

Mr Spice, it's possible that NYC may be more tolerant of diversity. On the other hand NewYorkers are well known for their uncaring coldness. People in NYC do not like to get involved with strangers even if the stranger is getting attacked! I know it's a cruel world out there.

And yes of course NYC has huge housing projects. Anyone who drives through the city can see the ugly complexes in the Bronx alone. Trust me, I am not a fan of huge concrete apartment buildings built on top of each other with almost no greenery and recreation space. However I don't blame poor people for their circumstances generally and having opportunity to survive in these hideous and unsavory places than on the streets. And yes of course I agree that crime and waiting lists, bribery does exist. Poor people do not follow the same codes as you and Me Spice. Yet Mr. Spice the original thread here was about communist style housing in Russia.

You have lived there, though only in a city correct? It is certainly true that these large communist style concrete apartments are still the norm in Russia. Housing idealogy and progress in Russia has its problems that at least in my opinion are well behind the US. The bottom line is that the poor people in the US are so called lucky to live in large communist style apartment dwellings. Though in no way are they lucky. In Russia as you said, most of the population does and likes it. What is wrong with this picture I say!

BTW with you and your wife's income, it won't take much time at all to buy a big condo in one of these upper class monstrosities. Smile

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Cyndy - I think you misunderstood. Most people in Russia want to live in clean, nice and beautiful buildings. There were many ugly ones built during the soviet times when people had no choice where to live and were happy to live in any apartment building. Most of the new apartment buildings being built in St Petersburg and Moscow are quite nice looking. And many of the apartment buildings in the center - architecturally - are quite nice. They may be run-down at times because of lack of care and funds. But they are nothing like public housing in the Bronx. And the inhibitants in those buildings are nothing like many inhibitants in public projects there. New Yorkers also love living in apartment buildings - but nice looking ones. There is so much condo construction goign on in the city and in Brooklyn too. The condo prices keep rising.

Most of the people living in the project are not poor-poor. If you are poor and you have nowhere to live, a housing project would not be a solution for you, cause you have to file hundreds of papers and wait 5,10,15 years in order to get that apartment.

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:

Yes I agree... Most people in any city, including poor, moderate and wealthy do want to live in decent, safe and nice places, whether it is apt. living, condo, or private housing. And the housing market as you said is incredibly high and out of many family's reach. Even rentals in the housing market are out of control and beyond the means of many folks. I have no clue how single people make it unless they have roomates.

I do however disagree with you Mr. Spice about the prevalence of nice apartment complexes in Piter, including the center. Contrary to what you know about me, I have visited people who were tenants in large housing projects for the poor in Boston. My husband's deceased grandmother and also aunt lived in these complexes. And Springfield and Holyoke here in western MA also have housing projects. These units are quite comparable to what I saw in Piter and stayed in in Tallinn, Estonia.

As a city person who grew up in such type of housing, you obviously are more comfortable than someone like myself who grew up in a single family home. But you are a smart man and you have blinders on in terms of the typical housing in Russia and thinking it is so much better than in the US, including low income housing. btw I qualified to live in low income housing when I was in college because of my acquired disability and limited income and in fact lived in an apt. for a few years that was subsidized and all tenants were low income. Even when I relocated to Hawaii to go to graduate school, I fortunately was able to take advantge of subsidized housing and food stamps. While clearly I did not live in a very prestigious apt. complex, the people were basically decent. Yeah I did witness some domestic disputes but such is life especially for families with limited resources. I am not saying that housing projects are wonderful places because they aren't. But housing in Russia in these ttypes of large monstrous buiuldings are no better. People are not meant to live this way and yes, that is why planners are de3veloping swmaller dwellings for people who have economic needs.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Massachussets is a very developed, civilized state. And I have no doubt that public housing in Western Massachusetts is quite nice. Probably nicer than most apartements are in St Petersburg, especially in the outer boroughs.

You have to realize that most buildings you saw in St Petersburg - especially the onces far from the center - were in government's hands until just a few years ago. As pretty much everything owned, managed and controlled by the government, those buildings were not properly maintained. However, you should also realize that many of the people living inside those buildings did all they could to make their apartments cosy and clean. So, in the US if you see an ugly building, especially in the Bronx - chances are, it is ugly on the inside too. I think it's often different for buildings in St Petersburg in that sense.

I can tell you that many apartments located in the center of St Petersburg are quite nice and spacious. And on Nevsky, where most real estate was privatized, the buildings look much much cleaner than they were when I left St Petersburg 10 years ago.

And I saw quite a few newly constructed buildings in the new areas of St Petersburg. The new buildings are quite nice.

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject:

I do agree that the apt's I have stayed in in Yekaterinburg, St. Petersburg and also Tallinn, Estonia are much nicer inside. No question! Still, I would be hard pressed to live in this concrete maze of community where people do not even associate with their neighbors. There is no green place for their children to play, have a small garden etc.

I understand that the govt. and that includes Russia, Estonia and USA govt., is not going to spend alot of money and labor into maintaining public housing. It is a fact of life. Well I probably am wrong about socialist countries such as Sweden.

As the world becomes more and more populated with diminishing resources, developing practical and affordable housing is a big issue isn't it?!

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Actually, the building where I lived had a lot of trees around it and a play ground for children. And many of my friends' buildings were also in green areas that were quite nice. St Petersburg has a lot of parks and tree on the streets in the outer areas. Therefore, the buildings you saw there do necessarily represent how many people live. I guess it depends on a city and neighborhood.

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

Excuse me, but can we please keep on topic here.. either split this thread or start posting something more relevant!

Only joking, of course.. just trying out my best El Casey impression(bless him).

You both make some good points, and give plenty to think about.

I agree that in an ideal world people are not meant to live sandwiched together, but until a more expedient way can be found to house so many people, with the building contractors only going to one location as opposed to being spread out over miles and miles(which would bring chaos both to the public and to the preservation of the environment, not to mention raising costs to the equivalent of a nations GDP), then this is going to be the only solution for now.

However, it is important to mention that I have seen some hideous buildings which have been extremely plush on the inside(and believe it or not this can add to the character at times-location being an important factor, naturally).

Even the worst housing projects looked fine when they were first built, so I guess it comes back to the mentality of the people who live inside of them. And America has almost patented the stereotypical image of how many of these projects look like, through film, media, music, you name it; it is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy in many cases.

What you are finding in a lot of places over the world is refurbishment of such projects and investors moving in.
How buildings were originally intended does not always dictate their future. Just take a look at this(albeit no project) 'thing' in a mediocre-good part of London:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050830/ap_on_fe_st/britain_skinny_house

I believe time will show some of the worst projects becoming something better..
So long as inanimate objects are being blamed and resources are not directed towards educating people, mankind will run into all sorts of troubles.

Many poor people will get up to all sorts of things, create negative situations for themselves, and find something else to blame, regardless of location. It's what people do with their minds that counts.

After all, the ancient Greeks and Persians lived in clay houses, and look at what they achieved..

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