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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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 Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Xela: Now I know that Russia is a big country - thanks.
As far as the picture is concerned, I really liked the watermellon. |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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ditto about the melon, shame about the melon-seller... oops!  |
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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Once again, you can count on Mr Spice to ignore the point of the sentance completely..
And regarding the melon-seller, you can thank the Russian government for giving him his seeds..  |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Xela wrote: |
Although you misunderstood my link. It was the Africans who were beating the Russians in SPB. They were most probably North Africans tired of the remarks and attacks because they were thought of as the theatre bombers or whoever, and so they replied with the same treatment. |
No, X. I have understood it right. The second part of it says:
"According to Interfax, however, it was the African students that were attacked. Their law enforcement source said that three unknown people attacked them with baseball bats after they left a night club. The source confirmed that the foreigners were taken to a police station."
I think africans just look way different from anything an everage russian is used to. They (we) have not been exposed to the rest of the world for a long while as you know. On top of that the temperment, cultural, ethical differences sometimes are too great for people to be tolerant toward. It will gradually come though. |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Xela wrote: | | And regarding the melon-seller, you can thank the Russian government for giving him his seeds.. |
If he wanted to make a better gift he should have given this:
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Xela: At first, I though it was the picture of you selling the watermellon to russians. Then I realized that you can not possibly have such a large beard. |
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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, Vitalsigns, I must admit your picture is much better..
However,
| Quote: |
No, X. I have understood it right. The second part of it says:
"According to Interfax, however, it was the African students that were attacked. Their law enforcement source said that three unknown people attacked them with baseball bats after they left a night club. The source confirmed that the foreigners were taken to a police station."
I think africans just look way different from anything an everage russian is used to. They (we) have not been exposed to the rest of the world for a long while as you know. On top of that the temperment, cultural, ethical differences sometimes are too great for people to be tolerant toward. It will gradually come though. |
Did you read the part that says 'Their law enforcement source'?
I think that pretty much clears up the fact that it was the Africans doing the attacking and the authorities were too ashamed to admit it.
But Africans are not the issue here, they are not indigenous to Russia, and never have been. You can equally imagine a Russian getting beaten for no reason somewhere in rural Africa, so it is the status quo..
What concerns me is when Southern Russians and others face discrimination, it is their bloody country for crying out loud!
You can argue some pay Russia back in the form of bombs etc., but I am talking about a massive uprising which will literally cripple Russia's main cities, much in the same vein as France. Even if Russia does become understandingly tolerant all of a sudden, it is certainly on the cards, and the fact the Russian leaders are starting to change their rhetoric all of a sudden means that they can see it too.
Mr Spice,
..And how would you know what I look like?  |
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Xela: On a serious note, I don't think any kind of appraising similar to France's can happen in Russia. The reason for it is simple: Russia is not a real democracy. Many of those people that face discrimination are afraid to love their priviledges of living in large russian cities. You cannot just move to Moscow in Russia, even if you are a russian citizen. You need to have what they call "propiska" - a permit to live in the city. I bet all those ethnic minorities are afraid to raise their voice. The prospect of returning back to their often poor homelands won't look too exciting to any of those people. Not to mention the russian police (militia) that is not likely to be gentle to protesters. They won't wait and be afraid of being too harsh, that's for sure. Unlike France where people have deep respect for the rule of law and expect the government to respect the law, the majority of Russians will quickly demand action on the part of the govrnment and ask it to use any means. Also, the folks from the southern regions of the former soviet union and russia are very much hated by the majority. They are viwed as beign dishonest which they have to be sometimes to make a living in Russia without proper papers... |
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Xela
VIP
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 781
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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OK Mr Spice, but on a serious note how many Slavic Russians lie about their name and origin when they are doing something dishonest(ie identify themselves as being from Southern Russia)?
What about in places like Moscow, where many Southern Russians have high standings in the academic/cultural scenes, and indeed have a lot of financial interests over there? Are they dishonest?
Seems like whatever they do, Russians have got a reason to hate. And it all stems from a man who himself was from Southern Russia.
But please don't kid yourself and believe that they won't strike back for fear of being sent home. The modern racist attitude of Slavic Russians(at least how it is now) has been relatively new(since '99), so you cannot be ruling out any rebound effects just yet(did you ever read Russian history?).
And certainly don't think that the protests of Russians to send in militsia heavy-handedness will deter them either..
Remember, Chechnya defeated the entire Russian army a decade ago, and the majority of mafia doing the bashing around in Russia are Southern Russian too. These are not signs of fear, Mr Spice, quite the opposite.
Dress it up however you like, because the reasons you give as to why it will never take place are the very reasons I say that when it happens, it will not be a pretty sight. |
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vorteks
VIP
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 571
Location: European Union
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| MrSpice wrote: | | Xela: On a serious note, I don't think any kind of appraising similar to France's can happen in Russia. The reason for it is simple: Russia is not a real democracy... |
Finally something i can agree with you MrSpice
The french cars burning crises, which cant be called riots since there were no death over a 3 weeks period, shows that we are too much a democracy and not enough a republic. This is in no way a racial riot comparable to Los Angeles or Birmingham.
This is much more an educational crises. The failure of trying to educate the poorer populations to understanding the notions of civil Rights AND Duties. The consequence is that those populations remember fairly well the rights, but forget the duties. The experience of replacing prison by social services seems to have failed, and the lesson will be remembered. Fire is fascinating, for people as well as for medias, which explains why the crises was so publicised, which contributed to keep the fire going by an emulation phenomenon.When you can set fire to cars without having to fear judicial consequences (children are not considered as juridically responsible), it becomes a simple enjoyable recreation. When medias give detailed daily numbers, it becomes a competition between surburbs.
And yes, unemployment does play a role, the energy of this youth could be more positively used....for this we would need to lower labour cost, which would mean lower corporatist privileges...reforms that very few politicians have the courage to undertake, since they are themselves public servants. |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Wow, vorteks said something that I can concur. The new and loving me has some weaknesses... I am not sure how to feel now. |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Xela wrote: | LOL, Vitalsigns, I must admit your picture is much better..
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Actually it was meant as an offence. Him carrying a pig? No pork allowed. It's like spitting in someone's face! Too bad you missed on that. |
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justinfraz
Just Starting
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Until several hundred years ago, most people everywhere on earth never saw anybody who didn't look like them. They were not racist because, as far as they knew, there was only one race.
As far as they knew: 1. There was only one race 2. They were not racist.
Only they WERE racist. It just took bumping into other races, aided of course by technological advancement, for them to discover that: 1. There WERE other races on earth 2. They WERE racist. They knew neither of those two facts before the advent of ship-building technology!!!
That was then -- several hundred years ago. But the sad part is that even today -- in the year 2005 -- long after the discoveries were made, the same tired, old, boring, stupid, immature, ignorant, prejudicial, and dangerous racism nonsense and its consequences continue. Long after the arrival of awareness, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment!!! |
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mister_wizzz
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Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="vorteks"] | MrSpice wrote: | | Xela: On a serious note, I don't think any kind of appraising similar to France's can happen in Russia. The reason for it is simple: Russia is not a real democracy... |
| vorteks wrote: |
Finally something i can agree with you MrSpice
The french cars burning crises, which cant be called riots since there were no death over a 3 weeks period, shows that we are too much a democracy and not enough a republic. This is in no way a racial riot comparable to Los Angeles or Birmingham. |
Right and wrong, did you see Asian or European people burning cars ? I only saw Arabian and black people doing it.
| vorteks wrote: |
This is much more an educational crises. The failure of trying to educate the poorer populations to understanding the notions of civil Rights AND Duties. The consequence is that those populations remember fairly well the rights, but forget the duties.
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Yes but it is also obvious that immigration is a big part of the problem, people who didn't understand that are blind or don't want to see the reality.
This is the result of 30 years of stupid immigration policy. The only question is :
How so many poor and uneducated people with such far culture background from European standart can be integrated in french society ?
We saw the answer : people who wants to enforce their own rules in the Republic and lead to riots.
Alain Finkelkraut said those riots were pogroms against the Republic, I agree 100%, those people are simply new fachist and hate what the french Republic represent.
Some people here said France is a racist country and riots are the logical consequences ... give me a break. I ve never seen a country which help so much immigrants (and I travelled a lot).
One more thing : I am myself from immigrant family (spanish), my parents came to France to escape Franco's dictature and 40 years after they still thanks France for everything.
I also spent my youth in those big areas with those very big ugly buildings, the same areas where riots starts, so I know what is life there and I ve never burn any car.
One more thing : I am not Arabian but really look like and I ve never been discriminated.
| vorteks wrote: |
The experience of replacing prison by social services seems to have failed, and the lesson will be remembered.
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Yes, I knew the time when government paid hollidays to this kind of people, by the way those same people make big mess everywhere they go. It is time to kick some asses.
| vorteks wrote: |
Fire is fascinating, for people as well as for medias, which explains why the crises was so publicised, which contributed to keep the fire going by an emulation phenomenon.When you can set fire to cars without having to fear judicial consequences (children are not considered as juridically responsible), it becomes a simple enjoyable recreation. When medias give detailed daily numbers, it becomes a competition between surburbs.
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Fascinated by fire ... so it's an excuse to burn car of honest people ?
A 17 years old guy is not a child and he is not considered responsible by Justice. This is a non sense, it is time to change this and give to Justice the possibility to judge and punish people under 18.
| vorteks wrote: |
And yes, unemployment does play a role, the energy of this youth could be more positively used....for this we would need to lower labour cost, which would mean lower corporatist privileges...reforms that very few politicians have the courage to undertake, since they are themselves public servants. |
Unemployment play a role probably ...but why 40% of those people are unemployed ? Just because they exclude themselves from society. There is a subculture in those areas which consider everyone like a looser if you want to study, if you don't like rap music, if you don't speak the suburban language (which is awful by the way...) etc etc ...
| vorteks wrote: |
for this we would need to lower labour cost, which would mean lower corporatist privileges...reforms that very few politicians have the courage to undertake, since they are themselves public servants.
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Yes, in France too many people work hard to pay corporatist privileges and I am waiting for the politician who will be courageous enough to end it. But I don't see the connection with riots... |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 582
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:47 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mister_wizzz"] | vorteks wrote: | | MrSpice wrote: | | Xela: On a serious note, I don't think any kind of appraising similar to France's can happen in Russia. The reason for it is simple: Russia is not a real democracy... |
| vorteks wrote: |
Finally something i can agree with you MrSpice
The french cars burning crises, which cant be called riots since there were no death over a 3 weeks period, shows that we are too much a democracy and not enough a republic. This is in no way a racial riot comparable to Los Angeles or Birmingham. |
Right and wrong, did you see Asian or European people burning cars ? I only saw Arabian and black people doing it.
| vorteks wrote: |
This is much more an educational crises. The failure of trying to educate the poorer populations to understanding the notions of civil Rights AND Duties. The consequence is that those populations remember fairly well the rights, but forget the duties.
|
Yes but it is also obvious that immigration is a big part of the problem, people who didn't understand that are blind or don't want to see the reality.
This is the result of 30 years of stupid immigration policy. The only question is :
How so many poor and uneducated people with such far culture background from European standart can be integrated in french society ?
We saw the answer : people who wants to enforce their own rules in the Republic and lead to riots.
Alain Finkelkraut said those riots were pogroms against the Republic, I agree 100%, those people are simply new fachist and hate what the french Republic represent.
Some people here said France is a racist country and riots are the logical consequences ... give me a break. I ve never seen a country which help so much immigrants (and I travelled a lot).
One more thing : I am myself from immigrant family (spanish), my parents came to France to escape Franco's dictature and 40 years after they still thanks France for everything.
I also spent my youth in those big areas with those very big ugly buildings, the same areas where riots starts, so I know what is life there and I ve never burn any car.
One more thing : I am not Arabian but really look like and I ve never been discriminated.
| vorteks wrote: |
The experience of replacing prison by social services seems to have failed, and the lesson will be remembered.
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Yes, I knew the time when government used to pay hollidays to this kind of people, by the way those same people make big mess everywhere they go. It is time to kick some asses.
| vorteks wrote: |
Fire is fascinating, for people as well as for medias, which explains why the crises was so publicised, which contributed to keep the fire going by an emulation phenomenon.When you can set fire to cars without having to fear judicial consequences (children are not considered as juridically responsible), it becomes a simple enjoyable recreation. When medias give detailed daily numbers, it becomes a competition between surburbs.
|
Fascinated by fire ... so it's an excuse to burn car of honest people ?
A 17 years old guy is not a child and he is not considered responsible by Justice. This is a non sense, it is time to change this and give to Justice the possibility to judge and punish people under 18.
| vorteks wrote: |
And yes, unemployment does play a role, the energy of this youth could be more positively used....for this we would need to lower labour cost, which would mean lower corporatist privileges...reforms that very few politicians have the courage to undertake, since they are themselves public servants. |
Unemployment play a role probably ...but why 40% of those people are unemployed ? Simply because they exclude themselves from society. There is a subculture in those areas which consider a looser everyone who wants to study, who don't like rap music, who don't speak the suburban language (which is awful by the way...) etc etc ...
| vorteks wrote: |
for this we would need to lower labour cost, which would mean lower corporatist privileges...reforms that very few politicians have the courage to undertake, since they are themselves public servants.
|
Yes, in France too many people work hard to pay corporatist privileges and I am waiting for the politician who will be courageous enough to end it. But I don't see the connection with riots... |
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