Way to Russia Community and Forum

cdnexpat · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject:

MS,
You started a good thread...
God knows where it will end...
When I see that people blame Russians for being racist after sometimes having been there a short time, I get mixed feelings. Yes, they may be so, but give them credit for being honest and straightforward about it.
Gonethe sun, you hinted that some of these racial profiling would be very rare in the USA. It is a known fact that it is not acceptable there, as well as in Canada. What do people do? They lower the voice when they make these comments...
Not too long ago, car dealers were fined in southern states for charging a higher interest rate to colored people. Statistically, they were right in doing so, based on the rate of defaults on loans...
But they were found guilty of RD.
About the events in France, I have my theory on this, that BBC and CNN were so happy to have a go at France that they mustered all the energy that they could to cover that"Crisis". My daughter is studying in France, and she barely heard about these events, and never saw that violence...
We must remember that a couple hundred burned cars are normal for a night in France.
Where does that leave me. RD is everywhere, but Anglo-Saxons are more PC and hypocritical about it than Russians and other eastern european nations.
Cheers,
Bob

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

cdnexpat, crabman, gonethesun and others,

I started this thread because I was tired of all the bad rap Russians were getting just because a few tourists had run into the wrong people or heard of these remote incidents from those few tourists. Ok fine, THESE THINGS HAPPEN, NOT ONLY IN RUSSIA!

Also, I want people to think before they start slapping a label on Russians (or any other country for that matter), to look at themselves, at other coutntries, and at their own countries first.

First of all, I don't think Russia should be singled out for being a racist country. From some of your responses, countries like US and France (oh gawd looks what happening now) are experiencing problems with racism.

Heck, I have traveled many places around the Asia-Pacific, toured Europe, and experienced more racism than in Russia. Even in next-door Malaysia, for goodness sake, and in my own country, kids in school wouldn't mix with kids of different race, speak a different second language or even religion. And that carries on into the workplace... and the scary thing is that most people do not even try to acknowledge the problem!

But wait, maybe it's because people just feel a little shy, or don't want to offend the other party, and stay away from each other? Or maybe that waitress thought that British couple was a tourist and served them first before all the Malay and Chinese customes to show some form of hospitality? Whatever's the real reason we probably never know. I know my godmother (of Asian heritage) once argued with an insurance person in Australia on the grounds of racism that they refused to pay her a larger sum for the jewellery that was stolen when the house was burglered... the 'racism' you and I expereience may not stem from 'real' racism or hate.

There are many things that can't be confirmed even if you see it 'with your own eyes'. So as you said, cdnexpat, this thread may never end!

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

Would you agree if I said, that american anti-racism is based on political correctness rather than on personal convictions? I think if some believe that blacks and whites should not marry - it should be respected just as much as the opinion that they should. But, no, you will be labled a racist if you do not flow with the pop culture, however, alot of moms will not allow their white daughters to date a black fella even if he is a very nice person. Are they racists?

Russian racism is deep rooted. Where I grew up, we always knew that it is not good to be friends with tatars who came from surrounding villages to the city where I lived. We scorned and dipised them. If somebody didn't look like your everage russian - we ostrasized the person. It went on for years and years. It was wrong.

cyndy22 · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject:

First, I want to say that I like the new and loving Vital Signs!

And I do agree in the US that polical correctness tries to mask rascism here. And it is B.S. for sure. The fact is that in probably all parts of the world, at least in many countries, rascism exists to some degree in just about every person. Is it right? Absolutely not, but none the less, people have been conditioned from almost birth to harbor rascist views. While I don't think of myself as rascist, I know that when push comes to shove, I do have some rascist attitudes. For example if I am in a place where I am a minority white person, for example leaving a mall at night where the parking lot is full of Black or Puerto Rican people, especially men, I feel a certain paranoia, that I know stems from rascism. When I was a child and my parents drove through inner city neighborhoods where Blacks liveds, Iwe were told to roll up our windows and lock the door. Is this right? Probably not but then again there are instances of violence that stem from rascism in all directions.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I think political correctness here masks something that is logical and makes it look like racism. There's no question that real racism exists in America. However, the example you mentioned is not that. Statistically, the crime rate among blacks, especially serious crimes like assault, robbery, rape, murder, are much higher than among the general population. Things are getting better especially in the last few years where some large cities (like New York) became very safe due to strict law enforcement. More and more blacks make it into the middle class and live productive lives and achieve success. But I don't think you would be afraid if you saw a black person walking down the street neatly dressed, in a suit and and a nice coat with a business suitcase. You are afaird because you see black people dressed in "gansta" clothing or the like. There's was a scandal here in New York a few years back when the news came out that many taxi drivers did not pick some black and latinos at times. Everyone was initially outrages. Then it turned out that many taxi drivers were from Africa and were black themselves. And the reason they did not pick up some black passengers was because those people often live in poor and dangerous neighboorhoods and the taxi drivers were just afraid for their safety. The moral of the story is: some of what even you call racism stems from the fact that crime rates among blacks in America, unfortunately, are much higher. So after watching "Cops" or similar programs on TV, you subconsiously profile people on the street. In large cities, significant percentage of blacks and hispanics live in huge public housing projects that turned into ghettoes where people see little opportunity and a lot of crime (Harlem in New York, South Chicago, South L.A., South Boston, etc.). That is mostly the result of social experimens of the 40s, 50s, and 60s when the govenment thought that by providing cheap or free housing, that will make people live responsible lives, but the opposite happened.

See it from the source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

In Russia the problem is racism without any reason. Russians routinely dislike many ethnic groups just because they are not Russian. Well before the conflict in Chechnya, people from the southern parts of the country were disliked and called names. I heard some of the people that I thought were educated and smart, making deragatory remarks about ethnic minorities quite often when I lived. In that respect, Russia simply sucks. You cannot even compare it to the US, especially the multicultual parts of the US like California, New York, Boston, etc. where people are very tolerant of other cultures and traditions.

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

You have nailed it down. By my former post I do not try to defend racism at all. I believe any form of racial discrimination is wrong, but still no matter how wrong it might be, people subtly discriminate against others left and right. I think, everyone is more tolerent until it hits closer to home.

I had a friend who was at the same college as I was. He started dating a girl who was of a different color. His parents told him they will never accept her as part of their family. Eventually he broke up with her.

Churches in the US are either predominantly white or black. Why? Why can't people worship together?

cdnexpat · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:51 am Post subject:

There is also other forms of racism that people never even think exist, and it would help our understanding of the world if it was more talked about.
Where I am now, we have a homogenous, afghan muslim population, right?
No! The 75 people working for me are from four different ethnicities, Tajik, Pashtoun, Shiites, and Hazare, and there are also Uzbeks in the vicinity. Although all Afghans, they do not trust each others, they will only marry within an ethnic group, etc.
They frequently backstab each other, and at work, half of my staff problems are related to these racial tensions.
And we are talking same colour, same religion same culture, etc...!
As much as we do not like to see racism, and as much as we like to hide our own feelings behind PC acceptable behavior, we will be faced with it for a long time.
My two rb on the subject...
Bob Very Happy

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

I think using Aghanistan is a bad example. The country has pretty much been a war-zone for the past 25 years and if you think they treat themselves badly; look at how they have treated westerners or Russians.

Russians are racist by nature; that is a fact.
Ironic that the man that helped drive them to this national understanding was himself 100% from a FSU Caucasus state.. but still, stupidity knows no boundaries, as they say.

For many Russians, racism helps give them a sense of importance through their poverty and the lack of respect they recieve in their lives.
Just take a look at these racists:
http://mosnews.com/news/2005/11/07/xenophobia.shtml

Funny how they all look more Chechen than a Chechen, but once again, stupidity knows no boundaries..

They like to think Russia is a country for Russians only, which helps gives rise to incidents like these:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/11/11/africansfight.shtml

Incidents which will empower the ethnic minorities in Russia, so I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years you see gangs of Central Asians and Southern Russians battering innocent Russians in their own cities for no other reason than for the hell of it.

You reap what you sow, I guess..

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

"You know you Russians are so honest and straightforward about your xenophobia, I'd like to offer you a watermelon as alms."

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

Oooooh boy..... Rolling Eyes

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

The second article you have posted a link to says it better: "Attacks on foreigners have become common in recent years in Russia. In most cases the attackers are members of nationalist and racist groups."
(Note "recent years" and "members of nationalist and racist groups.")

I hope you are not blaming the entire russian population, X. for what happened to those africans.

cdnexpat, that's funny. You know when I was in the Army, many moons ago, it was backward. In their dislike for russians, many of the Uzbeks and Tajiks there acted like they were of the same ethnic group (to be a bigger, stronger group). Same with other fairly distant natonalities - all were kind of united just to be a bigger, stronger group.

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

It had been fine until xela posted that photo! Smile

Xela · VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai

Vitalsigns, of course I am not suggesting all Russians are like that.
But please don't be under the illusion that this is only the sentiment of racist and nationalist groups, because many Russians think like this just to be accepted.

Let me explain:
Russia is a very big country sometimes with hundreds of miles between the next town/community. As such, the one thing that helps keep the country united is the sense of identity. If you meet somebody who you deem to be very 'Russian' you will adopt his ideals in an effort to make you look and feel more 'Russian'. And it is this identity which helps keep Russia united(especially important after perestroika, when even Russians thought they were living in no man's land). Unfortunately, for many Russians, the topic de jour is to be proud of your pure-Slavic roots.

Although you misunderstood my link. It was the Africans who were beating the Russians in SPB. They were most probably North Africans tired of the remarks and attacks because they were thought of as the theatre bombers or whoever, and so they replied with the same treatment.

I seriously think this sort of occurance will become much more frequent in Russia over the coming years. And this is something that for the first time, has Russian leaders rethinking their racist remarks:

http://mosnews.com/interview/2005/11/17/immigration.shtml

What happened in France will happen in Russia, only Russia has an indigenous population of Southern Russians, central Asians, Chechens etc. who have even more reason to be pissed off(and are more dangerous), so when it does kick off, it will be one sorry sight indeed.

You cannot have your cake and eat it, unfortunately..

Mediashark,

What is wrong with that photo?

Is this not the man who worked for the Russian KGB?
Is this not the man that Russia accepted as the leader of one of their very own states(albeit some time ago..)?

Heck, most of the western world are willing to let him come on TV and be formally interviewed like a celebrity, and yet a picture of him carrying a watermelon on this forum is unacceptable?

Some might say you've been getting a little too influenced yourself over there..?

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