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Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Russian Contexts, Myths and Truths

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mister_wizzz
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Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

mister_wizzz wrote:

Those who wanted to be with USSR ? Come on, you know like me that most of them were forced to incorporate the Red Army because their country were annexed to the Soviet Union.
The same happened with areas annexed by Germany, it was for instance the case of the east of France (Alsace Lorraine) and the east of Belgium.

As for people from Baltic states who incorporated the Whermacht and the Waffen SS they were all volonteers, following this simple rule : "the ennemy of your ennemy is your friend".

So you are saing that they went to Waffen SS volounteerily, but those who went to the Red Army was forced? You are saing they would choose Nazism over Communism? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Yes they do. Simply because they considered the Soviets as ennemy because they were the occupation force, I remind you the Soviets annexed the Baltic states not the Germans. The Germans have been welcomed like liberators, like I told you : "the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend". They made an alliance with the Germans only to get rid of the soviets, they would do the same with any army able to kick out the soviets from their country. That's why they now consider the former waffen SS like heroes.

yorbcbud
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Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

So you are saing that they went to Waffen SS volounteerily, but those who went to the Red Army was forced? You are saing they would choose Nazism over Communism? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

I have been looking up info on the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states. Tell me if this is correct or not. This doesn't seem as though the Soviets were welcomed to me.

Quote:

In the first year of Soviet occupation, from June 1940 to June 1941, those confirmed executed, conscripted, or deported is minimally estimated at 124,467: 59,732 in Estonia, 34,250 in Latvia, and 30,485 in Lithuania[15]. This included 8 former heads of state and 38 ministers from Estonia, 3 former heads of state and 15 ministers from Latvia, and the current president, 5 prime ministers and 24 other ministers from Lithuania. [16]

Between July and August 1940, Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian envoys to the USA and UK made official protests against Soviet occupation and annexation of their countries.

I believe the Soviets attempted to occupy Finland as well, but they were rejected, and ended up only leasing a small area in the end. This doesn't sound like welcomed to me.

yorbcbud
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Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

yorbcbud wrote:

I have been looking up info on the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states. Tell me if this is correct or not. This doesn't seem as though the Soviets were welcomed to me.

Quote:

I believe the Soviets attempted to occupy Finland as well, but they were rejected, and ended up only leasing a small area in the end. This doesn't sound like welcomed to me.

In Finland we failed, thanks to the traitor, Monnergheim, he worked for Russia and for the Tsar. Then when we turned Soviet he ran back to Finland and there he build his infamous "barrier" that claimed many of our soldirs' lives. But Finland was originaly part of Russian Empire, so we weren't occupying anything, just trying to take back what belonged to us all along. Just like England fought a war with the early US trying to stop it from achieving independence.

\

So Sergei, do you not believe that the states that want indepedence, deserve to be independent?

yorbcbud
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Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:24 am Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

yorbcbud wrote:

So Sergei, do you not believe that the states that want indepedence, deserve to be independent?

Then if you put it that way, Quebec deserves independence too. But that would be bad for Canada wouldn't it? If we start slashing up countries like NATO did with legitimate republic of Yugoslavia, and like it was done with USSR (a global catastrophe indeed as mr. President said), the world will become a very bad place to live, I assure you. There will not be order anymore: today there was one country, tomorrow there is three! Why don't we just divide the Earth into states the size of a sity each today and be done with it if that's the path you want to take?

Well, if you talk to your sis, and she's been here for a while, she can tell you that the west gets very poor and lopsided treatment, as compared to back east. If Quebec wants to separate, thats up to them. It would have more effect on Quebec then it would on the rest of Canada. Ontario is the center of power in Canada. Not Quebec. I don't want them to separate, but I have to say that I don't care that much. French is already an official language, so if it wasn't, it would make things easier for those who don't speak it. I was only asking you a question, not making a statement. I dpn't see any point in making the world a bunch of tiny little countries, but those are not my decisions to make.

yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:55 am Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

Yeah, that's true.

Judging from what I have been reading on the Baltic states, the Russian population there is accepted quite well now, so I don't suppose it's all that bad. They weren't allowed to vote for a long time. There are exceptions to everything I suppose. I see great potential for trade and growth between Canada and Russia. Our two countries have always had a great respect for each other, and we don't stick our noses into each others business, so I think the potential to become closer is very great for us. Personally I like Russians alot. We have huge Russian, and Ukranian populations here, and they all love this country. so do the Muslims. The tolerance in this country cannot be matched by any other country in the world. We don't try to change people here. We accept them, their cultures , and religious beliefs as they are. They only add to the greatness of Canada. IMHO

yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:09 am Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

Good for Canada. Russia and Canada should trade more.
As far as Baltic States you are right about acceptance for Russians... in Latvia and Lithuania.
Buddy, I've been in Tallinn the day our WW2 vets were putting flowers to the Iron Soldier. Then some Estonian nazi scum came and started to stomp the flowers with their feet. There was too many police there, but we managed to catch one of the assholes in a back alley after. I doubt he'll ever forget the beating he got there. And how we spit on him, while he was lying on the ground, before walking away.

Canada has zero tolerance for Neo Nazi skinheads. Many have tried to spread their garbage here, and gotten real good beatings for it. We don't put up with it here. I've handed out a few beatings myself, and probably will again.
As soon as the ice is clear over the Arctic, I'm sure our trade will go at it non stop. We really do like Russia here, as I'm sure you have noticed. There'll always be a couple A-holes, but who cares about them?

yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:59 am Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

Many people in my country too think that Russia, Canada, Norway, and Finland should start a Northern Alliance of a sort ("northern" countries trading and helping e.o. out in different ways). In Scandinavia, aka Norway and Finland, some people I've talked to also think this could be good idea.

Well as long as we include the Netherlands. The Dutch people are our best European friends, ever since WW II.

It might surprise you to discover how involved we already are with each other. Check this link out:
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/canada-europa/mundi/country_rus_c-en.asp

mister_wizzz
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Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:08 am Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

yorbcbud wrote:

May be but I doubt Finland, Canada and Norway would like to make an alliance with Russia for different reasons :

Finland is already member of the European union. European Union and Russia have opposite interests in many fields, too many.

Norway has all criterias to integrate European Union but it didn't because this country consider it will not be a winning-winning relationship, so I cannot imagine this country making an alliance with Russia.

As for Canada, the same, I don't know this country but I wonder what Canadians could expect with such alliance.

The last point is Finland, Norway and Canada are real democracy with no corruption : the exact opposite of Russia.

I think the only common point between those countries is cold weather but it is not enough to build a serious relationship.

greg222
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Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 521

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:58 am Post subject:

yorbcbud wrote:

Ahh, vigilante beatings. An essential component of any free and tolerant society Wink

mister_wizzz
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Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

Buddy, I've been in Tallinn the day our WW2 vets were putting flowers to the Iron Soldier. Then some Estonian nazi scum came and started to stomp the flowers with their feet. There was too many police there, but we managed to catch one of the assholes in a back alley after. I doubt he'll ever forget the beating he got there. And how we spit on him, while he was lying on the ground, before walking away.

And you wish democracy, freedom in your own country ?
How can you wish that if you behave like a skinhead yourself in a country which is not yours moreover ?

You and your friends beating a single guy and you are proud of that ?

Tell me, would you dare to beat a Russian skinhead like you did in Estonia ? I guess no.

jo jo 7
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 3199
Location: Louisville,Kentucky

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:

Sergei2007x wrote:

yorbcbud wrote:

Stomping on flowers on mens graves doesn't make a hero but, beating up a man doesn't either even if the other was wrong. This is the problem with men they don't spread their hearts or beliefs as a man for honor of their country or try to make another understand where they are coming from they just keep spreading the hate for each other. I guess shaking hands among men and coming to a mutual culture respect is no longer a value. Lets just beat each other up so we can express our hate instead of understanding who we are. That really solves the problem among young men from different places. This makes me wonder about our future of what kinds of leaders that will take over and run our countries...very scary!!!!!... Crying or Very sad

yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject:

greg222 wrote:

yorbcbud wrote:

Ahh, vigilante beatings. An essential component of any free and tolerant society Wink

I'm sure all the Jews, blacks, gays, etc, would agree with you on this. They would love you for tolerating Nazi skinheads. Tell me, are you a Nazi skinhead? There would be no other reason to defend them. I guess you think we shouldn't have beat them down in WW II either? This is a stupid statement for you to make. IMHO

yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject:

jo jo 7 wrote:

I wouldn't beat someone for stomping flowers. A young drunk guy urinated on a war memorial here, and he was arrested and forced to make a public apology and do community hours. Thats a good solution. But Neo Nazi skinheads deserve every beating they get.

yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject:

mister_wizzz wrote:

As for Canada, the same, I don't know this country but I wonder what Canadians could expect with such alliance.

The last point is Finland, Norway and Canada are real democracy with no corruption : the exact opposite of Russia.

I think the only common point between those countries is cold weather but it is not enough to build a serious relationship.

There is a little more than cold weather that we have in common.

Economic Cooperation
The Canada-Russia Intergovernmental Economic Commission (IEC) is co-chaired by Canada's Minister for International Trade and Russia's Minister of Agriculture. Following up on discussions between Prime Minister Martin and President Putin in October 2004, the Canada-Russia Business Council (CRBC) was formally established in Moscow on December 17, 2004 by an agreement of the Canada Eurasia Russia Business Association (CERBA) and the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs (RSPP).

Trade and Investment
Canada has significant interests in the resource extraction and processing sectors as well as in transportation equipment and food products. Canadian companies have been active in the Russian oil and gas sector for over 25 years. New areas of opportunity are in agricultural equipment, infrastructure and telecommunications.

Canadian exports to Russia in 2003 were valued at $334 million, up more than 40% from 2002. The actual value of exports is undoubtedly higher because official statistics do not capture trans-shipments through third countries or services exports. The price of oil, Russia's largest hard currency generator, has a direct influence on the level of Canadian exports to Russia.

Canadian imports from Russia in 2003 were valued at $814 million, up more than 110% from 2002, almost exclusively on the basis of increased imports of crude oil from Russia. Steel, fish, radioactive isotopes and other base metals represent the other largest imported items.

While Canadian investment in Russia declined in the late 1990s, major new investments by Canadian multinationals are planned in the resources and manufacturing sectors. Canadian direct investment in Russia is mainly in the mining, food, transportation and high technology sectors.

Northern Cooperation
Canada and Russia are both major Arctic states. Active bilateral cooperation in this area began more than 35 years ago. When Prime Minister Martin and President Putin met in Moscow in October 2004, they agreed to an immediate, systematic effort to reinvigorate the northern dimension of Canada-Russia relations. Through the Arctic and North Working Group of the Canada-Russia IEC, both countries will work together to develop a forward-looking agenda on northern cooperation, and an annual progress report to foreign ministers on northern bilateral relations. Russia is the chair of the Arctic Council for the 2004-2006 period.

mister_wizzz
VIP

Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject:

yorbcbud wrote:

jo jo 7 wrote:

Yes, of course, included the Russian Neo Nazi skinheads who are the most numerous on the planet. By the way, I think that any Nationalist in the Baltic States is stupidly considered like a Nazi by the Russians. The guy who stomped the flowers on the grave is stupid but not necessary a nazi. Fifteen years after the end of WW2 I think that flowers would have been stomped the same way on the grave of a German soldier in any country which suffered of German occupation even if any soldier of any army killed in action deserve respect.

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