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yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4903
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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 Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: The Right Way |
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"Hamas, the Islamist organization which took over the Palestian government after winning the January elections, should be given a chance to become a real political force and embark on the path of a political settlement in the Middle East, Anatoly Safonov, a special representative of Vladimir Putin, told a news conference on Thursday, Russian news agency RIA-Novosti reported.
“It is necessary to give Hamas a chance to become a political force, so that the Palestinian leaders cannot later blame others for having been denied that opportunity,” the official in charge of international cooperation for combating terrorism and cross-border crime said. “Moreover, it is necessary to help [Hamas] with criticism and advice,” he said.
The world community has to make a choice between giving Hamas leaders that chance, or never recognizing the new Palestinian leadership at all. “By refusing to recognize Hamas, we will only make matters worse,” the envoy said" |
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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Right Way |
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| yorbcbud wrote: | "Hamas, the Islamist organization which took over the Palestian government after winning the January elections, should be given a chance to become a real political force and embark on the path of a political settlement in the Middle East, Anatoly Safonov, a special representative of Vladimir Putin, told a news conference on Thursday, Russian news agency RIA-Novosti reported.
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It would all be great if Hamas was not an already established militant terrorist organization that is responsible for countless suicide bombings and deaths of many innocent civilians. And their platform has not changed - they remained just as militant. By the way, RIA is a government controlled news agency and they say what their government wants them to. Russia understands that they cannot do much to resolve the Palestinian conflict right now so they spread the message that contradicts the West's position just to look like they have an opposing point of view.
Most importantly, this is a mute point since no one is trying not to let Hamas govern. They just don't want to let Hamas send suicide bombers into Israel and support other terrorist groups. |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree they should be given time, they have had alot of their infrastructure destroyed, and so they need to basically start from scratch in order to get some kind of normalcy. Without that, there will be insecurity and unrest. You cant be expected to control a mob of angry unemployed people who have had their homes and basically their entire lives destroyed. Time is the key, trying to rush them to get a handle on the situation is unfair, and unrealistic. The Palestinian people voted for Hamas, so I agree let Hamas prove themselves. |
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yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4903
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Right Way |
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| MrSpice wrote: | | yorbcbud wrote: | "Hamas, the Islamist organization which took over the Palestian government after winning the January elections, should be given a chance to become a real political force and embark on the path of a political settlement in the Middle East, Anatoly Safonov, a special representative of Vladimir Putin, told a news conference on Thursday, Russian news agency RIA-Novosti reported.
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It would all be great if Hamas was not an already established militant terrorist organization that is responsible for countless suicide bombings and deaths of many innocent civilians. And their platform has not changed - they remained just as militant. By the way, RIA is a government controlled news agency and they say what their government wants them to. Russia understands that they cannot do much to resolve the Palestinian conflict right now so they spread the message that contradicts the West's position just to look like they have an opposing point of view.
Most importantly, this is a mute point since no one is trying not to let Hamas govern. They just don't want to let Hamas send suicide bombers into Israel and support other terrorist groups. |
If thats true then why are we, in the west trying to bankrupt them out of power? I think that you are very wrong and not open minded enough to see that This is the right way to do things. The suicide bombers have no other way of getting Israel out of their land. What other option do they have? Talking to Israel is equivalent to banging your head against a wall. |
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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Right Way |
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| yorbcbud wrote: |
If thats true then why are we, in the west trying to bankrupt them out of power? I think that you are very wrong and not open minded enough to see that This is the right way to do things. The suicide bombers have no other way of getting Israel out of their land. What other option do they have? Talking to Israel is equivalent to banging your head against a wall. |
I think what the West (the US, Canada and the EU) said to Hamas was this: accept the right of Israel to exist. Accept the fact that you want to negotiate with Israel in the future in order to reach peace in some form, eventually. Hamas still is oficially committed to destroying Israel. It supports suicide bombings. So the the US and the EU said: you can do what you want, but we're not going to subsidize a government that supports terrorist activity and murder of civilians.
The West is not obligated to support all countries in the world. The only reason that support was given in the first place was to help the newly form and poor Palestinian authority. The money was meant to advance peace and economic development, not help the organization that is on par with those who attacked civilians in London and Madrid and does not want to change those beliefs and principles.
No one is stopping them from governing their land, attracting investment, doing what most other countries do to live and prosper. |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The Israeli government and their extremist political parties have tried to undermine peace for years. Given how extreme they are, I am sure they are willing to die for their cause as well ie (emulate a palestinian suicide bomber and blame it on palestinians). I dont see peace coming unless the USA takes a stand against real terrorism, and stops siding with land robbers who never had a right to enter the country to begin with. |
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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Fire_Goddess wrote: | | The Israeli government and their extremist political parties have tried to undermine peace for years. Given how extreme they are, I am sure they are willing to die for their cause as well ie (emulate a palestinian suicide bomber and blame it on palestinians). I dont see peace coming unless the USA takes a stand against real terrorism, and stops siding with land robbers who never had a right to enter the country to begin with. |
Well, if you try to read a little bit on this subject and do some research, you will find out that Israel had several left-wing/peace-oriented governments in place in the last 10 years. Israel gave up most of the occupied territories, including Gaza and most of the West Bank in exchange for the peace agreement. In fact, one of the prime ministers - Ehud Barak - was willing to leave all terrotories and offer the Palestinians a chance to share Jerusalem with Pelestinians as a joint capital in their negotiations with Bill Clinton. Arafat refused all offers then. Israel was overwhelmed by suicide terrorist attacks and the public opinion in Israel turned. People said: we gave up large portion of the land, we agreed to so much, yet the violence has opnly escalated and the head of the Palestinian authority does not want to accept any offers? That's how the latest right-wing government came to power. There's a reason for everything. It does not just happen.
Here is a good and I think relatively impartial account of the Israel-Palestinian conflict on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict |
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yorbcbud
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Joined: 17 Feb 2006
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Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MrSpice wrote: | | Fire_Goddess wrote: | | The Israeli government and their extremist political parties have tried to undermine peace for years. Given how extreme they are, I am sure they are willing to die for their cause as well ie (emulate a palestinian suicide bomber and blame it on palestinians). I dont see peace coming unless the USA takes a stand against real terrorism, and stops siding with land robbers who never had a right to enter the country to begin with. |
Well, if you try to read a little bit on this subject and do some research, you will find out that Israel had several left-wing/peace-oriented governments in place in the last 10 years. Israel gave up most of the occupied territories, including Gaza and most of the West Bank in exchange for the peace agreement. In fact, one of the prime ministers - Ehud Barak - was willing to leave all terrotories and offer the Palestinians a chance to share Jerusalem with Pelestinians as a joint capital in their negotiations with Bill Clinton. Arafat refused all offers then. Israel was overwhelmed by suicide terrorist attacks and the public opinion in Israel turned. People said: we gave up large portion of the land, we agreed to so much, yet the violence has opnly escalated and the head of the Palestinian authority does not want to accept any offers? That's how the latest right-wing government came to power. There's a reason for everything. It does not just happen.
Here is a good and I think relatively impartial account of the Israel-Palestinian conflict on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict |
Thanks for the link. I'll read it later( no time now ) and get back to you on it. Looks interesting though. Later |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I dont think the Palestinians were too jazzed about Arafat, my friend told me most people felt he was an idiot who screwed his own people. I guess perhaps he chose to take the "all are nothing" stance, and received nothing as a result. |
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charles
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Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Fire_Goddess wrote: | | I dont see peace coming unless the USA takes a stand against real terrorism, and stops siding with land robbers who never had a right to enter the country to begin with. |
When Jews began moving back to Palestine approximately 100 years ago, it was controlled by the Ottoman empire. They BOUGHT the land they lived on from the Turks (with help from some wealthy European families), and they proceeded to scratch out a living, coexisting more or less peacefully (at the beginning) with the local Arabs. The Wikipedia article is not a bad place to start reading if you want to learn about the conflict, but in my opinion it doesn't go back far enough. For example, it doesn't explain how the British screwed everything up pre-WWII. As for the "right" to live there, that would require a discussion of Biblical history.
So, what's the Russian interest in the Middle East, post- post- Cold War? I agree with Safonov's view that the Hamas government should be given a chance. Is Russia merely concerned with promoting general peace in the region, to avoid inflamming Muslim relations & the Chechnya situation? Or is there some other agenda? |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| You know what ive never understood the reasoning behind (besides being malicious) was the act of bulldozing palestinian homes and businesses, I mean come on, whats that about? You suspect someone so you bulldoze and demolish their homes, so they are homeless and desperate? In the USA we are not obligated to "rat out" our relatives to the police. The police are not allowed to come to your home and harrass you just because of who your relatives are. Why in a supposed "Democracy", they feel they can push palestinian people into a kind of "limbo", where its unclear what their rights are, and then violate international laws? This is not a recipe for peace its a recipe for disaster, no matter how you want to spin it. Cant blame that on Arafat! |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| charles wrote: | | Fire_Goddess wrote: | | I dont see peace coming unless the USA takes a stand against real terrorism, and stops siding with land robbers who never had a right to enter the country to begin with. |
When Jews began moving back to Palestine approximately 100 years ago, it was controlled by the Ottoman empire. They BOUGHT the land they lived on from the Turks (with help from some wealthy European families), and they proceeded to scratch out a living, coexisting more or less peacefully (at the beginning) with the local Arabs. The Wikipedia article is not a bad place to start reading if you want to learn about the conflict, but in my opinion it doesn't go back far enough. For example, it doesn't explain how the British screwed everything up pre-WWII. As for the "right" to live there, that would require a discussion of Biblical history.
So, what's the Russian interest in the Middle East, post- post- Cold War? I agree with Safonov's view that the Hamas government should be given a chance. Is Russia merely concerned with promoting general peace in the region, to avoid inflamming Muslim relations & the Chechnya situation? Or is there some other agenda? |
Yes peaceful settlers were fine in the beginning, its only when they tried to put a quota on things, that illegals began pouring into Palestine and bullying the locals, and setting up illegal kevutz or forts, in order to take more land that was never theirs, because they were illegal. |
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yorbcbud
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Joined: 17 Feb 2006
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Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| yorbcbud wrote: | | http://www.peacethrujustice.org/AmericaIsraeltheArabIsraeliConflict.htm |
Like I said before Israel is one of the biggest terrorist nations. I dont believe for a moment that anything in that country is holy, and I dont believe for a moment that God's spirit is upon anyone there, otherwise there would be peace, and there isnt! |
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yorbcbud
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Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4903
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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