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thekremlin2000
Frequent Guest
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: S E Asia
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: Post USSR, why are most Russians still rude/miserable/surly? |
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Don't misunderstand me - I've been a devout Russianist for over 40 years and deeply love Russia's people, culture and almost everything. I majored in Russian, so think I know the language and culture and way of life at least passably well to feel able to comment as below.
Anyway, let me explain. I've just returned from my first visit to Moscow and St Petersburg since Soviet times, and I was naturally taken aback by the many changes - some good, some not so good.
But what struck me most was the almost brutally rude way that many or most Russians treat each other, and also foreign visitors such as myself. I could have added 'still' before treat, because of course in Soviet times things were scarcely better. However, I personally always found it far more acceptable to be abused by a Soviet shop assistant for daring to ask if there might possibly be any soap, or whatever, today (like Oliver perhaps asking for more...?); or to be bumped out of the way without batting an eyelid by oncoming huge weightlifter whose line of approach I apparently occupied; or to be told by a local that he/she doesn't know the place I'm asking directions for when it's actually the most famous landmark in the city and he/she lives next door to it, etc. etc...
No, I simply considered this all part of the mystique and privilege, if you like, of living in, and experiencing a uniquely different way of life than my capitalist Western home country. I also was aware that in Soviet times, there was little for your average citizen to smile and be jovial about, so all was forgiven.
But should I, and your average Moscovite or St Petersburger, etc. still be having to put up with this today, when the road from Moscow airport looks like Picadilly or New York on a good night, you can't find a Lada for Mercedes, and we have apparently taught the new young Russians how to drip feed a cell phone to the left (tatooed) arm? If at least Russia's two main cities are rushing with a vengence to finally do what Kruschev wanted, to overtake the West, can't their citizens at least take the best of the West with the package, like a smiling-oriented service culture for capitalist-oriented trade and business. At present, it seems to me like Russia has eagerly embraced capitalism but misunderstood that this means you occasionally at least have to treat your customers and clients with a bit of courtesy and respect, and the odd smile if you've not entirely gotten out of bed on the wrong side.
Personally speaking, as much as I might try to understand the system, I cannot see how you can go into a store, buy say a bottle of mineral water and take it to the cash till. Girl gives customary longish sizing-up stare (is it a power thing I'm describing, I wonder...?), you ask how much, she barks (oh, yes, it is a bark) 20 rubles, you place cash on the top, she stares momentarily at it, as if deciding it's not totally beneath her dignity to take it, or whether in fact you are worthy of being served at all, she wips up the cash, throws (oh, yes, throws) your change on the counter, and walks off to continue with her other, obviously more pressing duties than making profit and encouraging return custom by making this THE place to shop. As I said, much like Soviet times, but minus the excuse or the mystique that made it bearable, or dare I say, interesting or intriguing.
So, to reiterate, if anyone can shed some light on this great mystery of why Russians still continue to treat each other like crap, I am all ears.
And I also should add that, yes of course, I know that when you break through the defensive barrier most Russians are lovely, warm and as kind as you would wish for, as my many experiences over many years testify to. But I'm asking about the public face now, in all the people and places this is to be found, and why so many years after the USSR Russians still persist in treating each other so horribly, even though they surely hate to be on the receiving end of such behaviour themselves. |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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delete
Last edited by surfguy on Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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5_Zvehzda
Just Starting
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| surfguy wrote: | | So I threw the cheese at her and got my money's worth of pure satisfaction. |
I'm trying to get a visual on this one . . . so, where did the cheese land?
I wonder if it was re-stocked afterward.  |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I hit her right in the chest...it was great and she deserved it. |
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here are my ideas about it. When I visited St Petersburg, my imperssion was that more expensive stores and restaurants actually had western-style quality of service. When you go a regular store, you get Soviet-style attitude. Why? I can think of the following reasons:
1) Many of the store clerks make very little money and may be even more miserable than many people were in the Soviet times. While many people have better lives than before, Russia today is a place of enormous inequality where some people don't have enough money to eat while others spend $100 for a bottle of cognac. So, for many people life is still the same way it, and in some way worse.
2) People you see in the stores are not likely to live in the center of the city where you see the wealth and stores and appearance of economic stability. They probably live away from the center where there are new stores and businesses, but still there's a lot of dirt and poverty. They maybe from another town altogether living in Moscow or St Petersburg illegally (in Russia, every town is still like a country as it was in the soviet times - you need to be registered to live in the city and have an apartment there. That's called "propiska").
3) Old habits die hard. People don't change that quickly. Russians are not as demanding as customers. So, the service people don't have the same pressure as those in the west to provide high quality of service.
4) Lack of competition. Even though it appears that there are many choices in Russia today, because of corruption and favoritism, it's still not that easy to open an new business. Or not as easy as in the western country. So, the competition for customer is not as strong. |
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surfguy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:15 am Post subject: |
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delete
Last edited by surfguy on Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:35 am Post subject: |
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I think Spice you should go and live in Russia before passing judgements on anyone. Whatever you say is not valid. You like to blah, blah, blah about so many things, like you know what you are talking about. You do not.
The truth is Russia is Russia, you can't change it. The russian people will remain like they are for the next million years. You can't change americans, africans, koreans, etc., why are you expecting russians to become americanized? I am sick of your infantile, unintellectual approach. It's time for you my friend to just shut up. You have been saying a lot of things that are... well... infantile. I have no other word for your deprecated posts. (yes, go ahead and look up what "deprecated" means).
You are the epiphany of what a russian mentality is yet you are teaching everyone who to be more westernized. It's just laughable. |
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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| vitalsigns wrote: | I think Spice you should go and live in Russia before passing judgements on anyone. Whatever you say is not valid. You like to blah, blah, blah about so many things, like you know what you are talking about. You do not.
The truth is Russia is Russia, you can't change it. The russian people will remain like they are for the next million years. You can't change americans, africans, koreans, etc., why are you expecting russians to become americanized? I am sick of your infantile, unintellectual approach. It's time for you my friend to just shut up. You have been saying a lot of things that are... well... infantile. I have no other word for your deprecated posts. (yes, go ahead and look up what "deprecated" means).
You are the epiphany of what a russian mentality is yet you are teaching everyone who to be more westernized. It's just laughable. |
I think your sexual depravity is speaking again. I think saying "Russia is Russia and nothing will change" is really silly. Russia has changed dramatically in the last 1,2,5,10 and 20 years. In fact, Russia has been changing tremendously many times throughout its history. In terms of service, most upscale places in Russia are actully close to the west in many ways. It's the lower end stores that are still suffering from soviet-style mentality. Are you going to say shit about everything I say now because I pointed out that you have a hungry boner in your pants? Is that your Christian way to say crap about others?
I think you should read what Jesus used to say about loving others - even your enemies (even though I am not one). |
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surfguy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty sure Russia has changed-25 years ago I don't think neither of you could have left that easily. |
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Zach10791
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Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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They would have had to defect.  |
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vox16
Just Starting
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| surfguy wrote: | | I think all those reasons are probably valid. Yeah I honestly don't understand how people survive. I found it to be expensive there. $200k for a piece of shit apartment. My GF just paid 65k for a small one. But then you hear about people not even being able to make $1000.00 a month. How do they afford all this if most people do not have a mortgage. |
If he already live here, it does not matter how much does it cost.They can rent it for some $500/month. They can commute from suburbs. But now it's not a greet idea to leave your home town to find $1000 job in Moscow.
Note that is no estate taxes ( much less than unilities cost ). |
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thekremlin2000
Frequent Guest
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: S E Asia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I should add that after about a week, I began to take on the aforementioned Soviet-like attitude (miserable, rude and non-communicative).
I think it was a subconcious survival thing. I stopped smiling and found myself looking in shop windows at the reflection of some strange, unfamiliar, scowling stranger. I stopped saying please, then thank you, and finally stopped speaking at all unless absolutely necessary.
And I have to say, I apparently must have blended in well by this because people began to mistake me for a Russian much more easily, witness my non-foreigner entry tickets to main sights (I'm deeply ashamed...). I also noticed more than once that the police document checkers more than once did a double take of my downcast, miserable face and moved on to richer pickings among the smiling foreigners elsewhere.
But, I then noticed that I felt thoroughly, totally, inconsolably miserable and wasn't enjoying myself, and life, at all. Didn't enjoy meeting people, talking to people, visiting famous places, etc. etc. It ocurred to me that if I felt like this after unintentionally adopting a miserable persona for a few days, so you have to wonder what effect this institutionalized misery and rudeness is having on the rest of Russia, where it seems to be there for the duration.
P.S. Was it in here that I read about the scam of one guy tossing a wad of dollars at the feet of a gullible foreigner and his partner working a deal/con with the foreigner? I can't believe it happened to me near Red Square (before I adopted my Soviet scowl, of course...). I remembered the scam right away as the wad floated before my eyes, and had to laugh, did laugh. The guy was taken aback when I told him his scam was more famous than the Beatles, but wished me good luck as he wandered off to fresher pickings. See - not all Russians ARE miserable after all... |
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krasatulya
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Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Can you elaborate more about this scam? I have never heard of it before. What do they do after throwing the wad of bills at their target's feet? |
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MrSpice
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| thekremlin2000 wrote: | I should add that after about a week, I began to take on the aforementioned Soviet-like attitude (miserable, rude and non-communicative).
I think it was a subconcious survival thing. I stopped smiling and found myself looking in shop windows at the reflection of some strange, unfamiliar, scowling stranger. I stopped saying please, then thank you, and finally stopped speaking at all unless absolutely necessary.
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I am not sure what you are from, but your perception is very much a cultural issue. There are countries where people smile to be polite. In Russia, there's a saying that "only fools smile/laught without reason"
Basically, most Russians will smile when they hear something funny. Slowly, the American way of doing business is being advanced there too. I can tell you that many Russians that live here in the US (even me to a certain extent) consider the constant smiles and "Thank you"s and "How are you"s that you here in the US on every corner kind of fake and disingenuine. In other words, when a supermarket cashier says "How are you", smiles and wishes me to "Have a great day", I don't for a moment think that he cares about me.
In that sense, it's easier to understand in Russia when someone really cares about you and truly wants to know how you're doing, because people don't throw "How Are You"s at random people. So part of it is not that people are not nice, but a different approach to smiling/thanking people. I can tell you that when I lived in London for a 1 month a few years ago, I did not see too many smiles either. |
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thekremlin2000
Frequent Guest
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: S E Asia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The guy who picks it up offers to share it with you if you won't tell the first guy, then the first guy comes back with a big friend, second guy runs away. First guy insists that you must have his money, so he and his friend mug you. The three of them meet around the corner, divvy up the money and laugh at how many people they've robbed that day. |
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