Way to Russia Talk Lounge

jo jo 7 · Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: Quick Questions

surfguy

Some of us work hard but it doesn't mean it pans out well. Take a trip to Kentucky and you can see it for yourself. Most of us live in "Flats" and if we live in a house we are in debt up to our eyeballs!!!!!!!

I really cannot compare because I think most general people in the world bust their butts just to keep their head on their shoulders and a roof over above them. Wink

surfguy · Lounge Wizard Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 6996

Most of us work hard which is my point...my perception after traveling extensively is tha everyone else in the world thinks that Americans are all millionairs. But we work very hard for what we have

jo jo 7 · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: sacrifices

vwdw · Just Starting Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 4

To me, the point is not in living in flats or houses. It's more about the psychology of personal possessions. Bear in mind that Russian people are used to living more collectively, having some common motivator. This is just a tip o the iceberg though.

CarlSpackler · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject:

surfguy · Lounge Wizard Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 6996

In order for societies to develope...money has to be borrowed or nothing would get built. This is what Russia is now coming to. Mortgages, credit cards, etc. It's the only way for growth. Of course it has it's huge pit falls as people over extend. But how else do people exchange goods that cost $$$. New luxury cars are upwards of $70k, Houses now cost $400k. So who can save that kind of money in any short period of time. Economies are based on consumerism so there has to be an exchange of goods. But if people cannot buy then there is no exchange. Which means no growth. I think these are exciting times for Russia as there is so much growth potential over there which means that the idea of suberbia will come into play and as more money is being made then people will be able to afford to live further from the cities and this will enhance the quality of life over there. With this demand will come the need for better infrastructure. I am the typical American...living with debt. It's the way of life. Even with a higher salary-it just increases the higher required standard of living.

CarlSpackler · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject:

surfguy · Lounge Wizard Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 6996

Yes I heard the same thing about people not repaying...of course it happens here on a large scale too. There is a big difference between borrowing for consumption and then borrowing for economic growth. I.E. business loans. Which is what will have to happen if a society is to grow. Real Estate prices in Moscow are at $3000.00 a sq meter. If the average salary is only $500.00 a month good luck in trying to afford a place. So if there is to be any sort of middle class then lending is what will allow for private ownership and upward movement. If this doesn't happen then the few will still control everything and this will prevent Russia from gaining truly 1st world status economically. It only takes a generation to change a mindset...even that is written in the communist manufesto

charles · Lounge Lizard Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 179 Location: USA

When I was in Russia this summer, I was thinking a lot about the differences between Russian & N. American cities. I saw Moscow & St. Peteresburg very briefly, but spent a whole month in Novosibirsk. One day, my friend helped me take a quick survey of people at a park, asking whether they would prefer to live in a flat in the city, or in a house outside the city if both were the same cost. It was a lousy survey because we only asked two people. One preferred the flat, the other the house. I read that in Moscow there is already significant suburban development (but mostly for the wealthy?) I was wondering whether it's possible to build low-cost housing in Russia, perhaps in dense communites similar to the already-existing dacha communities. But would people want to live in a house year-round, potentially removed from city services like snow-plowing? As I thought about this, I began to appreciate the sense Soviet-planners had in developing city growth. Having people live densely in apartment high-rises, surrounded by green spaces makes a lot of sense, though it didn't quite turn out to be the utopia it was supposed to be. But the sprawling growth of American cities is no utopia either. I'm not sure Russians have the same dream as Americans to own their own house and have a bit of green grass to mow. But there must be a way to make housing more affordable in Russian cities, or at least a better value. Obviously the fact that most Russians don't own cars (or haven't until recently) has made a huge difference in development compared to N. America, but is that changing?

That was a ramble, and hopefully not too off-topic.

vox16 · WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 321

CarlSpackler · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:

[quote="charles"]I'm not sure Russians have the same dream as Americans to own their own house and have a bit of green grass to mow. But there must be a way to make housing more affordable in Russian cities, or at least a better value.

To generalize, Russians who live in big cities dream of a great, big, centrally located apartment, preferably next to a green zone or a river. They also want to have a country cabin to escape to on weekends, ideally within 50km drive. As for housing prices, apartments in Moscow are infinitely more expensive that in any other city in Russia, including St. Petersburg mostly due to everyone in Russia who made any kind of decent money wants to invest (if not live) in apartment in Moscow, so you don’t have that spread of capital all over country's territory like in the States, resulting real estate prices in Moscow to skyrocket and many apartments to stay empty (thanks to very low property tax)

charles · Lounge Lizard Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 179 Location: USA

I think people who live in big cities anywhere in the world dream of a large, central apartment, near a park, lake, or river. And some people if they can afford it also have a home or cabin in the country. But the dacha is different than a second, "country" home I think. From what I could tell, the dacha functions like a backyard, only you have to drive or take a bus to get there, instead of just walking out the back door of your house. Not everyone can afford this luxury, just like not everyone in America has a backyard.

vox16, I didn't know anything about property ownership in Russia, or the lack of property tax. When you say the municipality owns all the property, do you mean jsut the vacant, undeveloped property? I know that people are able to buy flats, for instance. One of my friends who is studying business told me her idea to get rich: buy some land in the city to make a parking lot. Put a fence around it, hire a guard, and then just sit back and collect the money. Yes, she's is a little naive, but I can't argue that owning parking lots is a pretty good business, if you are able to get the land.

vox16 · WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 321

charles · Lounge Lizard Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 179 Location: USA

It seemed like every university student I met is studying economics, finance, or business. But what are the universities teaching? Do you think in 10-15 years there could be some change in the tax & property system, as the younger generation takes positions in governement and business leadership?

surfguy · Lounge Wizard Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 6996

People have the same idea in every major big city...but the problem is getting a lot where people can easily access where they work/live. Pretty hard to do.