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| Do you support the War on Terror? |
| Yes (I don't like terrorists) |
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76% |
[ 10 ] |
| No (I am a terrorist, actually.) lol |
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23% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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Message |
yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: | Let's talk about a small and peaceful European country : Danemark...
Last year a Danish newspaper (Jyllands-Posten) published some Muhammad caricatures to denounce the bad sides of Islam (and not Islam in itself).
I saw by myself those caricatures and most are funny and absolutly not degrading (not like a caricature I saw in A spanish magazine where you can see a caricature of Mary doing a blow job to Jesus).
The result : death threats on journalists, enormous demonstrations of hate against Danemark in ALL muslim countries, attacks of Danish ambassies, Danish products boycott...
All this mess for some caricatures ?
Now what happened in those Muslim countries after Islamists bombings who killed thousands of innocent people in US, Spain, UK, France ?
NOTHING. |
I never saw the caricatures, but since we know how fanatical some muslims can be about their religion, do you suppose it was a prudent move to publish something that could possibly incite violence in the muslim community? I'd say no. I'd say it was a rather stupid thing to do. They should have known better, you think? |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: | Let's talk about a small and peaceful European country : Danemark...
Last year a Danish newspaper (Jyllands-Posten) published some Muhammad caricatures to denounce the bad sides of Islam (and not Islam in itself).
I saw by myself those caricatures and most are funny and absolutly not degrading (not like a picture I saw in A spanish magazine where you can see a Mary masturbating Jesus).
The result : death threats on journalists, enormous demonstrations of hate against Danemark in ALL muslim countries, attacks of Danish ambassies, Danish products boycott...
All this mess for some caricatures ?
Now what happened in those Muslim countries after Islamists bombings who killed thousands of innocent people in US, Spain, UK, France ?
NOTHING. |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: | Let's talk about a small and peaceful European country : Danemark...
Last year a Danish newspaper (Jyllands-Posten) published some Muhammad caricatures to denounce the bad sides of Islam (and not Islam in itself).
I saw by myself those caricatures and most are funny and absolutly not degrading (not like a caricature I saw in A spanish magazine where you can see a caricature of Mary doing a blow job to Jesus).
The result : death threats on journalists, enormous demonstrations of hate against Danemark in ALL muslim countries, attacks of Danish ambassies, Danish products boycott...
All this mess for some caricatures ?
Now what happened in those Muslim countries after Islamists bombings who killed thousands of innocent people in US, Spain, UK, France ?
NOTHING. |
Maybe these countries need to adopt the death penalty, and immigrants will stop getting brave. How come we dont have a problem with our muslim population here in the USA? You mention death threats as if thats an uncommon thing, I guess you arent aware of all the death threats most public figures get when they make remarks on TV that piss people off. This kind of crap happens all the time. People who issue death threats are whack jobs, no doubt about it. Some people are overly emotional and are stupid enough to belief that God needs them to avenge him. This is whats wrong with organized religion in general. The Danes knew exactly what reaction they could expect, yet they did it anyway, and had fun. Muslims were pissed off because of the double standard. If someone posts a "funny" stereotypical comic about jews, its automatically deemed anti semitic hate rhetoric, and whatever newspaper who printed it would be black listed by the ADL, and many reputations would be ruined. Could the same be said for the Danish newspaper? Would society black list that newspaper and would those people have their reputations ruined? I think not! So the lesson here is when you push people into a corner, they go nuts. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| yorbcbud wrote: | | mister_wizzz wrote: | Let's talk about a small and peaceful European country : Danemark...
Last year a Danish newspaper (Jyllands-Posten) published some Muhammad caricatures to denounce the bad sides of Islam (and not Islam in itself).
I saw by myself those caricatures and most are funny and absolutly not degrading (not like a caricature I saw in A spanish magazine where you can see a caricature of Mary doing a blow job to Jesus).
The result : death threats on journalists, enormous demonstrations of hate against Danemark in ALL muslim countries, attacks of Danish ambassies, Danish products boycott...
All this mess for some caricatures ?
Now what happened in those Muslim countries after Islamists bombings who killed thousands of innocent people in US, Spain, UK, France ?
NOTHING. |
I never saw the caricatures, but since we know how fanatical some muslims can be about their religion, do you suppose it was a prudent move to publish something that could possibly incite violence in the muslim community? I'd say no. I'd say it was a rather stupid thing to do. They should have known better, you think? |
Absolutely not.
The question is not being prudent or not, the question is :
should we submit to Islamo faschists ? Should we let the Islamist International dictate what is allowed and what is not in free democratic countries ?
So what should we do : shut up ?
I am not Bush admirator but I wonder if some American neo con aren't right when they say that Islam moderation is a myth what I absolutely didn't think 10 years ago. |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Absolutely not.
The question is not being prudent or not, the question is :
should we submit to Islamo faschists ? Should we let the Islamist International dictate what is allowed and what is not in free democratic countries ?
So what should we do : shut up ?
I am not Bush admirator but I wonder if some American neo con aren't right when they say that Islam moderation is a myth what I absolutely didn't think 10 years ago. |
If we stopped with the friggen double standards perhaps alot of this shit would stop. Resolve the stupid issue in Palestine, and show regular muslims that the west isnt anti muslim, and people will feel less inclined to sympathize with militant groups. Anyone who still wants to get crazy should be shot. |
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yorbcbud
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4919
Location: Сорренто, Британская Колумбия, Канада
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
Absolutely not.
The question is not being prudent or not, the question is :
should we submit to Islamo faschists ? Should we let the Islamist International dictate what is allowed and what is not in free democratic countries ?
So what should we do : shut up ?
I am not Bush admirator but I wonder if some American neo con aren't right when they say that Islam moderation is a myth what I absolutely didn't think 10 years ago. |
So you think it's okay to poke fun at a religion, all the while knowing it may provoke a violent reaction? I don't think we should "submit " to anyone, but I don't believe we have the right to knowingly incite violence by making derogatory remarks, or cartoons about other people's religions, especially when we already know how they'll react.
The muslim population is huge in my country, and we have very little trouble from them. Is this because we oppress them, or because we respect their right to their own beliefs, and don't make fun of them, and their beliefs? I'll let you decide which is right.
A free and democratic society should also protect the muslims from arbitrary ridicule. Are they not also part of the free and democratic society as well? |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fire_Goddess wrote: |
Maybe these countries need to adopt the death penalty, and immigrants will stop getting brave. How come we dont have a problem with our muslim population here in the USA? You mention death threats as if thats an uncommon thing, I guess you arent aware of all the death threats most public figures get when they make remarks on TV that piss people off. This kind of crap happens all the time.
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Have you heard about Salman Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh.
The first one is hidding for 20 years now, fearing that a fanatic could cut his throat, the second one was not so lucky : he has been killed.
Death threats coming from those people isn't a joke, they act.
| Fire_Goddess wrote: |
The Danes knew exactly what reaction they could expect, yet they did it anyway, and had fun.
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Those journalists didn't do what they did "to have fun", they did their job.
So because you fear of people reaction you should shut up ?
Coming from you it is quite surprising, seems you never shut up yourself.
| Fire_Goddess wrote: |
Muslims were pissed off because of the double standard. If someone posts a "funny" stereotypical comic about jews, its automatically deemed anti semitic hate rhetoric, and whatever newspaper who printed it would be black listed by the ADL, and many reputations would be ruined. Could the same be said for the Danish newspaper? Would society black list that newspaper and would those people have their reputations ruined? I think not! So the lesson here is when you push people into a corner, they go nuts. |
Strange, this statement is always used by anti semitic people (I didn't say you are anti semitic).
Sorry, but that's not true, I saw some funny comics about jews here in France and nothing wrong happened to their authors. The only exception is the hollocaust, if you insinuate that this slaughter never happened even in a funny way you can have troubles, and I totally agree with that.
You cannot compare a critic about a religion and the negation of a proved fact : the most awful crime against humanity of all time. |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
You cannot compare a critic about a religion and the negation of a proved fact : the most awful crime against humanity of all time. |
This is your opinion, someone else might say that they should have the freedom to say what they want without anyone coming along whining about it or trying to start trouble. How come Muslims must always be silly whining fanatics who have no right to anything sacred, because others dont deem the same things sacred? I agree making sick jokes about the holocaust is just depraved, but who am I to turn around and tell someone else that they have no right to ask that someone refrain from making fun? Rushdie isnt the only person who has criticized islam, yet he is one of a minority of people who has a fatwa issued against him. Muslims are open for debate, they just arent open for slander. I think they should be less emotional about how they take criticisms, but then again who am I to say what others should tolerate. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="yorbcbud"] | mister_wizzz wrote: |
Absolutely not.
The question is not being prudent or not, the question is :
should we submit to Islamo faschists ? Should we let the Islamist International dictate what is allowed and what is not in free democratic countries ?
So what should we do : shut up ?
I am not Bush admirator but I wonder if some American neo con aren't right when they say that Islam moderation is a myth what I absolutely didn't think 10 years ago. |
| yorbcbud wrote: |
So you think it's okay to poke fun at a religion, all the while knowing it may provoke a violent reaction? I don't think we should "submit " to anyone, but I don't believe we have the right to knowingly incite violence by making derogatory remarks, or cartoons about other people's religions, especially when we already know how they'll react.
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Yes, because it is freedom of expression which is the first caracteristic of a free country.
So if I follow you I shouldn't do any critics about anyone if I know how they will react ? So I have to shut up to denounce a racist crime because a skinhead could beat or kill me ? Come on ...
| yorbcbud wrote: |
The muslim population is huge in my country, and we have very little trouble from them. Is this because we oppress them, or because we respect their right to their own beliefs, and don't make fun of them, and their beliefs? I'll let you decide which is right.
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What is right is respecting the law. If you start auto censure it is the beginning of the end.
| yorbcbud wrote: |
A free and democratic society should also protect the muslims from arbitrary ridicule. Are they not also part of the free and democratic society as well? |
Absolutely not. You can do anything you want if it is not out law.
So let's vote some anti blasphemy laws... it will be the start of dictature. |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| How come its illegal in some countries to be a holocaust denier? Could the reason be, because those governments feel that holocaust deniers who gain popularity will start neo Nazi flare ups, that will lead to violence? So Mr Wizz this is ok in your eyes? This doesnt violate peoples democratic rights to deny reality? What does anyone have to gain from making fun of a dead prophet? The only thing that could have ever come from that is violence. So holocaust deniers arent allowed to incite violence through their writings, but people should be allowed to incite violence in other ways? Its irresponsible journalism. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fire_Goddess wrote: | | How come its illegal in some countries to be a holocaust denier? Could the reason be, because those governments feel that holocaust deniers who gain popularity will start neo Nazi flare ups, that will lead to violence? So Mr Wizz this is ok in your eyes? This doesnt violate peoples democratic rights to deny reality? What does anyone have to gain from making fun of a dead prophet? The only thing that could have ever come from that is violence. So holocaust deniers arent allowed to incite violence through their writings, but people should be allowed to incite violence in other ways? Its irresponsible journalism. |
No it is not irresponsible journalism, it is exactly the opposite.
The bombings attacks in US, Spain, UK have been committed in the name of Islam, for me it is totally legetim for a non muslim to ask some questions about the nature of this religion, that was the purpose of these caricatures.
On the other hand, it would be totally illegitim to ask some revisionist and negationist questions about hollocaust because a lot of historical works has been made, this fact is absolutely not disputable. |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: |
No it is not irresponsible journalism, it is exactly the opposite.
The bombings attacks in US, Spain, UK have been committed in the name of Islam, for me it is totally legetim for a non muslim to ask some questions about the nature of this religion, that was the purpose of these caricatures.
On the other hand, it would be totally illegitim to ask some revisionist and negationist questions about hollocaust because a lot of historical works has been made, this fact is absolutely not disputable. |
Historical facts are in the hands of historians which are human beings, but thats neither here nor there. Those caricatures were in response to a request for illustrators who would be willing to illustrate pictures of mohammed for a book someone was writing. He tried to have some muslims do it but they said they could not because it was against their religion to illustrate their prophets. The author did not ask for people to submit anything comical, or offensive. I personally hate it when I see people making fun of Jesus, because I think to myself, what the hell do they have against him, and why should he be the ass of some joke. Its beyond disrespectful in my eyes. |
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mister_wizzz
VIP
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Fire_Goddess wrote: | | mister_wizzz wrote: |
No it is not irresponsible journalism, it is exactly the opposite.
The bombings attacks in US, Spain, UK have been committed in the name of Islam, for me it is totally legetim for a non muslim to ask some questions about the nature of this religion, that was the purpose of these caricatures.
On the other hand, it would be totally illegitim to ask some revisionist and negationist questions about hollocaust because a lot of historical works has been made, this fact is absolutely not disputable. |
Historical facts are in the hands of historians which are human beings, but thats neither here nor there. Those caricatures were in response to a request for illustrators who would be willing to illustrate pictures of mohammed for a book someone was writing. He tried to have some muslims do it but they said they could not because it was against their religion to illustrate their prophets. The author did not ask for people to submit anything comical, or offensive. I personally hate it when I see people making fun of Jesus, because I think to myself, what the hell do they have against him, and why should he be the ass of some joke. Its beyond disrespectful in my eyes. |
I also don't like when the Christ is caricatured or when people has fun with the Pope but it is the freedom of expression. This is said, I will never say to anyone what to say or what to do, neither vote a anti blasphemy law, threatening people life even less.
Here after a link about the spanish caricatures I was talking about.
They are very dirty, I cannot imagine if the photographer did it with Muhammad.
Did you hear about threats, demonstration in Christians countries to denounce that ? More generally did you even hear about that ?
I guess no, it is simply because most of Christian countries separate Religion and politics (in a law point of view but also often in their mind) and they don't place Jesus above freedom of expression.
Well I will not coming back to waytorussia today, I have some work to do.
http://www.reporterodigital.com/extremadura/post.php?p=13792&more=1&page=2 |
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jo jo 7
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 3199
Location: Louisville,Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mister_wizzz wrote: | | Fire_Goddess wrote: | | mister_wizzz wrote: |
No it is not irresponsible journalism, it is exactly the opposite.
The bombings attacks in US, Spain, UK have been committed in the name of Islam, for me it is totally legetim for a non muslim to ask some questions about the nature of this religion, that was the purpose of these caricatures.
On the other hand, it would be totally illegitim to ask some revisionist and negationist questions about hollocaust because a lot of historical works has been made, this fact is absolutely not disputable. |
Historical facts are in the hands of historians which are human beings, but thats neither here nor there. Those caricatures were in response to a request for illustrators who would be willing to illustrate pictures of mohammed for a book someone was writing. He tried to have some muslims do it but they said they could not because it was against their religion to illustrate their prophets. The author did not ask for people to submit anything comical, or offensive. I personally hate it when I see people making fun of Jesus, because I think to myself, what the hell do they have against him, and why should he be the ass of some joke. Its beyond disrespectful in my eyes. |
I also don't like when the Christ is caricatured or when people has fun with the Pope but it is the freedom of expression. This is said, I will never say to anyone what to say or what to do, neither vote a anti blasphemy law, threatening people life even less.
Here after a link about the spanish caricatures I was talking about.
They are very dirty, I cannot imagine if the photographer did it with Muhammad.
Did you hear about threats, demonstration in Christians countries to denounce that ? More generally did you even hear about that ?
I guess no, it is simply because most of Christian countries separate Religion and politics (in a law point of view but also often in their mind) and they don't place Jesus above freedom of expression.
Well I will not coming back to waytorussia today, I have some work to do.
http://www.reporterodigital.com/extremadura/post.php?p=13792&more=1&page=2 |
It is funny how the Ten Commandments has been removed from the schools. Every since this happened here in the US, things have gone out of hand with the kids. Rules were started by God and I don't see why religion should be separate from politics. Politics had to start somewhere and it was rules of religion.
That is my opinion. |
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darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 372
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| yorbcbud wrote: | | ........I never saw the caricatures, but since we know how fanatical some muslims can be about their religion, do you suppose it was a prudent move to publish something that could possibly incite violence in the muslim community? I'd say no. I'd say it was a rather stupid thing to do. They should have known better, you think? |
Spoken like a true dhimmi. |
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