Way to Russia Talk Lounge

andre · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject: crisis in Ukraine: Russia and UE

I read many things everywhere about the crisis in Ukraine: newspapers, forums. listening to radio, watching TV.... etc..etc... and there is one point really matters me. Relations between UE and Russia are getting bad? They even tell about a kind of beginning of new cold war.... I'm a bit troubled about all that, all those people who just bring bad news. And i just care about one thing: what thinks the people in Russia, about that. I know russian people here, in France, and there, in Russia... And everybody is really happy about exchanges and good things between UE and Russia.
I don't know what will be the result of that crisis in Ukraine. But I truly know that things will getting better. And all the "bad birds", those I hear about talking everyday bad news, will go away.

markhagelin · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:45 pm Post subject:

Andre

The Ukrainians truly want their freedom. And they are willing, if necessary to fight for it. The Georgians did the same thing. Freedom, while an abstract concept, is not just talk but action as well. They have realized that.

The Orange Revolution, like the Rose Revolution was, in a way, inevitable. The apolitical people decided it was time to be political. I think they felt that a move back towards Moscow would be a step backwards.

Some people are not afraid to talk politics and then to do something about it. If Putin is not careful he will start another Cold War. His so-called "reforms" are dangerous to Russian freedom, yet no one acts. He probably counts on the fact that Russians do not like to talk about politics and he will be able to put into place almost anything he wants.

It is a mistake in his thinking because many Americans will defend the rights of the Russian people to be free. America is currently helping Georgia and would do the same for the Ukraine. So will the EU.

Putin is afraid that the Ukraine will end up joining the EU, which would put the EU at Russia's doorstep. Right now Belarus which has already had a union with Russia, and the Ukraine are a barrier between Russia and the EU.

I think Putin was hoping for a Ukraine-Russia union similar to the one with Belarus. I don't think he counted on the election to go the way it did, or for the support for the Ukraine. It was a big miscalculation. If he continues he may end up putting Russia back into a Cold War.

I think his 2 biggest fears are the EU and China and he wants a buffer zone betwwen each of them.

He counts on the fact that the Russian people will not protest to keep their freedom. He did not understand that the Ukrainian people would be willing to protest to keep theirs.

The fact that Parliament declared the presidential election invalid and also passed a vote of no-confidence in the Central Elections Commission, although neither of them is not legally binding, shows a clear demonstration of rising dissatisfaction.

Yushchenko will become president. And eventually the Ukraine will join the EU which is probably Putin's worse nightmare to have the EU right next to Russia. It should be relatively peaceful.

If Putin wanted to do the right thing, he would not try the 'reforms" he has in mind, but he would strengthen Russian democracy and get Russia to join the EU and be a major leader. Russia in the EU would be sufficient to deter any threat from China or North Korea.

Instead, I view him as trying to make himself a "pseudo Tsar". I have read Russian intellectuals criticize what he is doing as taking Russia back into communism.

Mark

andre · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject:

Mark

thank you for your thoughts. I understand what you mean. But I just want to say 2 things. I know some people in Russia, and clever. And they don't consider Putin as a tsar. I mean, he's a politician, and like everyone of them, he does bad and good things. Be careful. I don't say he's a good politician. But tell me, what did they do the other presidents and politicians before in Russia? They helped people?

And too, you talk about USA... hum... You know, I'm french. And here, we always try to "fight" against the american power, and Bush. And that's why I understand Putin to protect Russia. I don't say the way he does that is good, but as the president of Russia, he should protect.

I don't know if I'm clear... maybe because ther are a lot of ideas in that. To explain more, let me tell you that here I really don't like my president. Because he doesn't do good things for people. But there is one point in which I approve him: he doesn't follow USA. And as one of the most important members in UE, he really tries to understand what happens in Ukraine, and with Putin too. And sure, he really aims to get good relations with Putin.

And I don't think that there are so much people who are apolitic, as you say, and to hide the head in the sand. Because when your family is concerned, you can't pretend. I'm sure people from Ukraine wants freedom (but which country doen't want that?). But I want to be sure that they won't get free from Russia, as lots of people say, to give their freedom to, I don't know UE, or worst, USA.

And so, about freedom. It's to be free to vote, ok? but, as I saw, ther are almost the same number who voted for Ianoukovitch, and the other part for Iouchtchenko. And it's said that it's lying , manipulation. ok. But who says that, UE? here in France, we voted for Chirac in a bad way. Not to get him for president, but most of all , not to get a pro-nazi for president. And that's a good thing. But because of that, Chirac gets now all the power to do everything he wants. And you can be sure that our country is in a bad situation now.
Bush talks about manipulation in Ukraine, and that Putin has some interest in it. But who is Bush to say that? Because we still don't know if he get president legally the first time. And now he makes his politic about fear in the world, and that works.

I just wanted to say that everybody has an interest in Ukraine. Russia, UE, and USA.
Russia, because they want to protect, and to get more strong.
UE, because we want more countries with us, to fight against....
USA, because they want to rule the world.

And people from Ukraine, what do they want?
And people in UE countries?

I guess that conversation is not finished.... Smile

deskware7 · Frequent Guest Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 67

The US/ NATO are building forward bases in Eastern European and Central Asian countries. They say these bases are for fighting terrorism and such. Maybe it's the "and such" that the Russian government and military are concerned about.

andre · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:13 pm Post subject:

Ok. But tell me what USA/NATO wants to Russia. I mean, if Russia wants to protect, it's because they want something. So, what's that?

markhagelin · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:44 pm Post subject:

Andre

Bush is the bad one not the American people. He played on their emotions to win re-election.

America has done much good before Bush but alot of American people have become apolitical and apathetic that is why Bush can do what he does.

Bush is a puppet president of the New World Order. The New World Order has gained control of most of the world's oil. They want Russia's oil. They want control of all of the world's oil.

Andre said

andre · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject:

Mark

That's ok for me. Maybe Bush, or Putin, or somebody else, is the puppet of that New World Order. But I'm sure all that gives an interest for someone, and that someone is not the people.

And you say that Bush is the bad one. I didn't say that ALL people in USA want to rule the world. But, as you said, Bush is reelected, and for 4 years. And that's really not a good thing. And he wants to rule the world. I don't if he is a puppet, but for the moment, he's like a child with a gun in his hands.

And to come back to the subject, I'm afraid that he got some interest in the Ukrainian crisis. And he wants to take something from that. Like in Iraqi. What does he do in here? There's nothing to do in USA? As I red, your people lives one of the worst economic and social crisis by that time. And he wants to rule the world? I'm not sure that Putin has to do something in Ukraine, but the other countries should more take care about their people, before giving lessons of democracy to others.

I'd like to get a lot of informations from Ukrainian people here, from the both parts. I'm really interested in that.

markhagelin · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject:

Andre

My posts are coming from the Kyiv Post [Kiev] one of the Ukrainian news papers. http://www.kyivpost.com/

Georgia is considered to be better a little bit more than a year after the Rose Revolution with the United States and other countries helping her out.

I don't know the full strategies of the New World Order. There are members in our congress, they control the major news stations the whole FCC crackdown maybe using intimidation to get only what the government wants said over the airways. The banks and banksters are involved to.

The Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, Skull & Bones and alot of other secret organizations.

What they do is called "crisis management". They create a crisis and then solve it. Their solutions either cost individuals their lives or their freedoms. 9-11 in the US good example. Terrorist bombing became an excuse to serach people, to watch where they got on the Internet, etc. in the so-called Patriot Act.

The New World Order has a tendency to play on people's emotions, especially their fear. Some have gone as far as to call it the Beast talked about in the Book of Revelation in the Bible. But according to the Bible the Beast was unsuccesful..

I don't have all the answers. I would say we must be diligent against those who would try to talk us into giving up any of our freedom.

Mark

Dr Fauste · Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654

Why is everyone comparing this to Georgia?
Georgia was different, because it had almost unianamous support for a revolution and Ukraine does not.
Georgian revolutionary does not have the bad history as Yashenko.
Georgia's choice was easy and Ukraine is more difficult.

Totally different

andre · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:13 am Post subject:

Yes, and that's why there's no need to find someone guilty or a liar for responsible of the ways elections were. Because if it's true that the elections were not legal, that doesn't mean that everybody in Ukraine want Ianoutchenko for president.
It's more complicated.

And too, that doesn't mean that people who want Ianoutchenko want freedom, and the others not.
It would be really silly to think that.

markhagelin · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:44 am Post subject:

Dr Fauste · Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654

Mark,
Really, you think that this is united revolution on the behalf Yasenko, but it is not . Even with corrupt vote, there is HUGE amount of the poplution that seek Yanukovich to have power. Which is totally different from Georgia. Someone has to broker the difference between the candidates to unite the country. Right now, NEITHER of these men are doing this.

markhagelin · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:25 am Post subject:

Mogsfan · WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490

You are BOTH missing the point of the entire issue. It is about a total disregard for democratic principles and an attempt to utilize totalitarian and thus, corrupt means to gain a desired result. I've heard, by now, from a couple of Ukrainians that both candidates are two peas of a pod (i.e. that they're both bad). But, THAT is not the issue here. It's about Ukraine being a puppet state for Russia and about the overall corruption going on in order to secure an election going a certain way.

It is NOT about who supports who and where. IT is not about whether the pro-Western candidate wins or the Russian-backed candidate wins. It's about ethics, democratic principles and what seems to still be a major problem for Eastern Europe, the FSU and people in general. NO ONE understands any of this, obviously!

markhagelin · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: