Way to Russia Talk Lounge

renwan · Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 204

Positivem.negative or Neutral View?

positive obviously.

Vic · Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject:

Positive but the evolution is continuing with the RF. Just feel sorry for the other 14 countries Confused

Vic

El Casey · Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject:

I think that was very well said, Vic. You guys can feel free to rip me apart on this, since I'm one of those "book learned" types who's yet to set foot in the RF or the CIS. Then again, I'm looking forward to doing just that! Only two more months until I call Moscow home! Very Happy

I was the second "positive" vote for the simple fact that I think, at least in the West, the role of the USSR both in world politics and as a political entity is grossly oversimplified, and there are plenty of neo-conservative, blindly faithful right-wingers in the US that still have a Cold War mentality against the Russian Federation even today.

I will say that I find the advocacy, and use, of terror against political opponents, first by Lenin and Trotsky (Lev Trotsky wrote a book called "On Terror" in 1920, I believe) and later, and much more horribly, by Stalin, to be extremely disturbing, though. The elimination of over 6 million Ukrainians via starvation as punishment for their resistance to Stalin's forced agricultural collectivization to be a gross crime against humanity, along with the tens of millions of other Soviets, Poles and Germans who were murdered. So I'm certainly no apologist for the Soviet Union.

But having said that, I feel that many of the good things about the Soviet Union are either quickly glossed over or denied completely, at least in the West. Krushchëv was quick to denounce Stalin and his crimes after becoming the Premier, and even Stalingrad was renamed Volgograd under his watch (1963, was it?). For all of ol' Nikita's bluster and shoe-banging speeches in the UN, he was all talk. He would have never attacked the West, nuclear or conventional, as it was counterproductive. As much as I loathe idea of Mutually Assured Destruction, it appears to have worked.

Brezhnev? He never bothered anyone. Screwed up extremely badly by invading Afghanistan, but so did many Western powers, notably the US, in Vietnam. Are there any Afghan War veterans who participate on the forums? I'd be interested to hear your position on that war, and your feelings regarding how you were treated or dealt with upon returning home, so I can contrast/compare to US soldiers returning from Vietnam.

"Developed socialism" was Brezhnev's big thing, although "socialism," which never really existed in the Soviet Union (the State owned the means of production, NOT the proletariat!), was certainly regressing during the Brezhnev-era. I've heard good things about this era from former Soviet citizens, however. No glasnost-style queues for toilet paper or shoes...is this true? How about human/civil rights and liberties in this era? Were people still fearful of criticizing the Party under Brezhnev's watch?

Gorbachëv is a man I have the utmost respect for. He was (still is!) a champion of human rights and political freedoms, but he believed in the Soviet ideal until the end, and I respect that. He acted with a bit of naivete, however, in thinking that the Soviet Union could be held together by any method other than military force, in my opinion. The CIS is a good step toward the relationship that I, personally, envision as "healthy" for the RF and former Soviet republics, but the former republics are basically screwed - the Russians can't afford to invest in their infrastructure anymore, so they're decaying. They're forced to allow US military bases on their soil to get foreign aid money. I don't have a problem with the US having foreign bases on principle, per se, but I think the US is going into the former Soviet republics for all the wrong reasons (namely, the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan Pipeline).

The US has bases, and substantial presence, in three former Soviet republics - Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan. Georgia and Kyrgyzstan have already had their revolutions, conducted after US presence was established, and the Uzbeks are on the verge of their own revolution. The Kyrgyz revolution was anything but "velvet," I worry that Sakaashvili doesn't run his own country, and seems to be provoking the Russian Federation for no reason other than spite, and the Uzbek revolution will be the bloodiest CIS revolution yet. Things are BAD.

Suspected terrorists are "rendered" to Egypt and Uzbekistan to be tortured for information. Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was fired because he refused to stop going public with the human rights violations going on in Uzbekistan. The shame of it all is that the intelligence gained from torturing people in Uzbekistan is usually not even reliable. I'm getting off-topic so I'll stop now.

Long story short, I take a fairly positive view of the Soviet Union, but I don't gloss over its shortcomings, and crimes, eithers.

Like I say, feel free to call me an idiot, naive kid since all my knowledge of the region is from websites and world news outlets, but I literally devour information about the RF and the CIS, especially with regards to politics. These are my opinions, and I can't wait to start forming additional opinions on Russian/CIS politics based on personal experience! Very Happy

LINKS -
Re: Uzbekistan - http://www.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/ennews/2004/10/ennews17102004.html
Re: BTC Pipeline - http://www.diacritica.com/sobaka/2003/salvador.html

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

I agree with Vic. Things are moving along fine in the RF. Russia still has been able to maintain a trillion dollar economy despite all of its problems. Some countries can't do that. Once things stablize in a generation or so, standards should be as good as it is in western Europe.

renwan · Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 204

e once i have time (in 1 or 2 days) i willr efute all this shit of the 6 million Ukranians and that jokes, haha comeone i thought u were a clever man....

overseas_expat · VIP Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 620 Location: Moscow

Are you people talking reality or some kind of foreign policy claptrap? I've lived in Russia for nearly 2 years and there are a lot of things I DO like about it but....there's no mistaking, this is a thirld world country.

Reality: A plummeting birthrate, crumbling 3rd rate health care system, corruption that reaches into every corner and crevice of daily life, an unstable and incomprehensible civil and criminal justice system, undependable supplies of everything, widespread poverty juxtaposed against a glossy layer of super-rich, decrepit substandard housing, a vast complex of interrelated sex industries that threaten the underpinnings of the social structure, lack of labor and property laws that keep the economy destabilized......poor sanitation, antiquated infrastructure, unclean drinking water, lack of plumbing......this is real reality.

Disregard all that pie-in-the-sky political crap that you read in the in the western and international news. It's meaningless ephemera aimed at stock market investors and wealthy foreigners. It has nothing to do with living in Russia every day.

People live one day at a time. They go to school, take showers, cook dinner, raise kids, work at jobs, buy shoes, drink beer, have weddings, do the laundry. That's real life. And for most people in Russia real life is hard. The farther east you go the more deprivation you see. Putin shmutin, that kind of glossy news coverage is no more relevant to the average Russian than a trip to the moon.

This country, as it is now, is sinking into a post-Tsarist oil-rich oblivion. Older people are resigned to their fate as meaningless laborers, and younger people are into anything for whatever pleasure it will provide them at the moment, and screw everything else. Not exactly a prescription for long lasting prosperity.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Seems to me expat that you actually read and believe in the pie-in-the-sky political crap that you read in the in the western and international news. It's meaningless ephemera aimed at stock market investors and wealthy foreigners.

Russia may have gone far down the tube, but at least Russians CAN go to school, take showers, cook dinner, raise kids, work at jobs, buy shoes, drink beer, have weddings, do the laundry. Try doing any of these things in some parts of Africa, the Middle east, El Salavdor, Paraguay or even friggin Brazil. THOSE are third world countries.

At least the younger people there can walk down to the store and buy clothes, or have sex with others without having to worry about stepping on a landmine, being kidnapped, raped, and executed becaue he's from the wrong tribe, social group, or very rich. Or brainwashed and drafted into some militia --or genocide squad. Or worse, die of diseases we laugh at here like the Flu, polio, Hepatitis, Cholera and etc.

And I dunno WHERE you see this poverty. I rarely saw this when I was there, and it wasn't in your face compared to Nigeria, Brazil, or Mexico. I felt and still feel safer in Russia than in those countries.

Go to to even nearby Romania, Georgia, Armenia, or the Stans, and you'll REALLY see poverty. Go to Yerevan or Dushanbe and you'll think Moscow is as clean and modern as London and it is.

Do some travelling....Really....

wwwadim · Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:55 pm Post subject:

My point of view on an essence of the USSR is positive. I cannot tell for other years rules of the USSR, but in 80th years to me was well and happily. Perhaps, because it was my childhood? Smile

init6 · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:04 am Post subject:

First, renwan, while I do respect you, and extend more courtesy to you than many on this forum, I hope your refutation of the murder of six million Ukrainians is going to be FAR more substantial than some Stalin-era statistic. Stalin was a murdering bastard, plain and simple, no matter what he did for the "glory of the Soviet Union."

[quote=overseas_expat]People live one day at a time. They go to school, take showers, cook dinner, raise kids, work at jobs, buy shoes, drink beer, have weddings, do the laundry. That's real life. And for most people in Russia real life is hard. [/quote]

Real life is indeed hard, and that doesn't stop in Russia or other poor countries. Russia is still very definitely second world and, as e mentioned, the poverty of Russia isn't "in your face" like it is in Latin America or sub-Saharan Africa. On the other hand, I'm certainly not trying to sound like an expert. I won't even set foot in Moscow until August. I'm also not a fan of glossing over a nation's problems in favor of the good things - and that includes the United States.

Another thing that I think needs to be discussed, expat, is that to many of us, politics and "foreign policy clap-trap" is not only interesting, but it is either our current job, or our intended job. I can't even tell you how many times my father has told me that I'm "way too interested" (is that possible?!) in politics and things that "don't affect me," whereas I should just be a good sheep and pay my taxes, have a wife I don't love, some kids I don't want, and be a "good American." Instead, I chose, even at the late-starting age of 25, to pursue a degree in a place I can afford it (Moscow) pursuing something that I not only have an interest in, but am passionate about (journalism, with an emphasis on politics, world news, war, etc). Apparently this is "bad" but I'm going to do it nonetheless. Smile

We are, however, getting off-topic in the vein of discussing the modern Russian Federation, not the Soviet Union. I am of the opinion that a new thread should be created to discuss the politics, life, situations, etc. of modern Russians and CIS citizens (and Baltics, for that matter, even though they refuse to participate in the CIS).

I'll finish with this - yes, I may be stricken with a little naivete before I get to Russia, but I prefer to look at it as having a good attitude. I think many of us, including myself, would do a lot better if we endeavored to have such an attitude more often. Cool

Vic · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:41 am Post subject:

Expat - you haven't been to the U.S. for a while, right?
Most people I spoke to that have been to Russia felt safer in Russia than in the U.S. or Canada. That says enough right there. They also did not see the poverty that is so talked about by the western media that has no clue what they are talking about as long as it sells.

E, the Ukraine isn't bad - but it is the same situation as with the U.S. and Mexico. If we were to close that border, they would not be in good shape. Belarus is indepentant, you are right, but the Ukraine is completely dependant on Russia.
Vic

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:30 am Post subject:

Expat is correct. Russia may not be 3rd world country but is certainly 2nd world. There is no way you can compare the standard of living for most Russians with most Americans or other Europeans. Life of course is hard for everyone but lets not be naive or have rose colored glasses. It doesn't take long or a person to be a rocket scientest to see with their own eyes the stresses that most Russians deal with day in day out. I am sure that Russia has made alot of progress,sorry Renwan, since Perestroika, but such a change in systems takes time.

While I am truly excited and looking forward to visiting St. Petersburg this month, I have to be honest and say that it has been difficult for my husband to understand why I would even choose to go there. When we were in Russia in 1998, Yekarinburg and Moscow, it was rather grim. It was very clear that life was mucher harder here than at home.

Vic,
I'm glad that you have such good feelings about Russia. It is of my opinion that if one lives in a foreign country by choice, one should generally have a postive attitude or get the hell out.
I have little tolerance for whiners who live in US and moan and complain like big babies.

wwwadim,
I do understand how you or Renwan etc. would have good, positive thoughts and feelings about USSR. USSR of course had good things too for people. Communism wasn't and isn't all bad. And am glad you remember nice past experiences asa child in USSR!

Vic · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:52 am Post subject:

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject:

It is good to know that RF has changed alot for the better since I was there in 98. As for my comment it was only an opinion and not specifically directed at anyone. I just think that wherever one lives, they should have some respect for the country, people ,culture. Not that they have to like everything. This is true for any expat or even citizens/non foreigners in their own country. People can leave if they don't like it.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

To get things back on topic and back to the point of this thread. Yes I have a postive view of the USSR (I didn't really answer Renwans question). Despite all of its shortcomings, it still was able to build technology equal to or superior to the west including an excellent space program that is superior to NASA and the ESA. Not to mention superior fighter jets such as the SU series. The Soviets had a much larger military, more nukes, and the most education and well-trained workforce ever. Looking at the Russians in this forum, and the ones you meet everyday you can see evidence of it. Very Happy

And while the Soviet Union was brutal, its nothing compared to China today. China is exactly like the Stalinist period now; as in one little bad thing you do and its off to a labor camp or executed. The Chinese econonmy maybe capitalist to an extent, but its still a VERY communist country. I'm not even going to talk about how it annexed Tibet and how its drooling over Taiwan.

If the Soviets implemented Chinese-style reforms ealier, around the time the Chinese did it in the 1970s, the Soviet Union would still around today, and tolerated a lot more. Gorby tried during piestroika and glasnost but it was too little too late.

But your asking the wrong people Renwan. Nearly everyone in here was born and raised and the west during the cold war and would therefore have no real objective (or positive) view of it.

Speaking of which: the Russian space program is now fifty years old. Check it out here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/sci_nat_baikonur_cosmodrome/html/1.stm

renwan · Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 204

This is just a short answer, full one will be done in 4 or 5 horus, not nought time now.

China after Mao is pure fascism, it is a shame they call China socialist.
Socialism in the USSR died when Stalin died, Khurschev, Brezh...all revisionist fucktwits!

and regarding the 50 years of the space program: Poehali! Smile