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Xenophobia, racism booming in Russia Goto page 1, 2  Next

Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Russian Contexts, Myths and Truths

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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:18 am    Post subject: Xenophobia, racism booming in Russia I noticed a lot of recent articles about anti-foreigner hatred by increasing skinhead and not-so-skinhead groups in Russia: anti-black, 01/31/2004: http://plato.acadiau.ca/COURSES/POLS/Grieve/3593/Russia/racism04.html Anti-Caucasian pogrom in Yekaterinburg, 09/09/2004: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/pogrom backlash on exporting Russian brides, 06/06/2005: http://candidrussia.blogspirit.com/archive/2005/06/06/xenophobia_-_how_rediculous_russia_is_becoming.html new anti-Americanism, anti-Semitism, anti-everything, 08/2003: http://www.cdi.org/russia/270-5.cfm http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2005/02/russian_xenopho.html skinheads beating, killing 9 year-old girls, 02/09/2004: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/14/MNGUSE7N2D1.DTL http://www.rickross.com/reference/skinheads/skinheads35.html more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/08/15/story216271.html http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/101504Bigotry.shtml This seems a bit silly, if not idiotic, given that there will be 1/3 less Russians in 45 years. And apparently the SS didn't exterminate Hitler's fans in Russia: http://antirasizm.ru/english_rep_007.doc http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/rca/rca_200205_118_5_eng.txt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1931147.stm Makes me leery about planning another trip to Russia, particularly with my Dodge SUV. ---------------------------------------------------------------- PART II: amazing Russia demographics facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia http://www.prb.org/PrintTemplate.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=6506 1990's: population shrunk by 3+ million people (458,400 during Jan-Jun 2001) Russia’s population: today: 144,000,000 by 2050: 80,000,000 {low estimate} *.) life expectancy, those born in 2000: Russian men: 59 years Russian women: 72 years 7 out of 8 countries where the male-female life expectancy gap > 10 years is in the CIS. *.) Leading causes of male deaths in Russia: circulatory diseases; accidents; poisoning; violence. Russia's violent death rate: men under 65: 6x times Belgium's; 12x higher than UK for women - "now higher than for most western European men" *.) abortion rate: 70% of all pregnancies *.) 40% of men reporting for army duty were rejected last year because of poor physical or mental health. *.) One million Russians are in jail. *.) 10% of all prisoners have tuberculosis. from "http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002649.html": *.) 30% of water samples failed to meet sanitary standards *.) Russians smoke 1,931 cigarettes per capita (over 2x world average) *.) 13-30% married couples - infertile *.) 2025 population estimate: 130,000,000 {U.S. Census Bureau} (14 million drop) 120,000,000 {U.N.} (22 million drop) *.) AIDS - from "http://media-cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/gems/politicshiv/ambrosio.pdf": 2002: # AIDS cases, official/reported: 18,000 2002: # AIDS cases, actual estimated: 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 (1.3 - 2.5%) 2010: # AIDS cases, estimated: 5,000,000 - 8,000,000 (6 - 11%) this compares favorably to Botswana (39%) or South Africa (20%). However, these countries have been in the AIDS crisis for a long time now. Since AIDS takes about 7 years from incubation until the victim dies, there will be 5-10 million Russians dying of AIDS during that decade, starting 5 years from now. I have a theory, the top brains of society left Russia long ago; now that block of real estate is filled with the Klingons of the world - hard drinking, fighting types, and not too bright. Last edited by vettra on Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:11 am    Post subject: It's a scary world isn't it! Vettra, Please do tell us about your 1st Visit to Russia. I hope it was good. Seriously do tell... You come across however as a rather odd duck. Aside from the fact that you harbor hatefulness towards me, and I assure you I am quite a nice gal, well for people who deserve it, I think you are somewhat off the beaten path when it comes to communication, socialization and news.
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:51 am    Post subject: my first trip is not relevent here. I briefly worked on "Healthy Russia 2020", a state-department funded project (hr2020.ru), in Moscow 2002/2003. As to dislike of cyndy22, suffice to say any dislike I have of a person is not a status easily attained, and is only deservedly earned.
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Odabo Frequent Guest Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 59 Location: Florida USA	Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Xenophobia, racism booming in Russia vettra wrote: ... I have a theory, the top brains of society left Russia long ago; now that block of real estate is filled with the Klingons of the world - hard drinking, fighting types, and not too bright. _____________________________________________ Those demons in my head are starting to get annoying Drink a 1/2 cup of bleach and a 1/2 cup of ammonia, them demons will quiet right down, trust me.
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Xela VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai	Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:11 pm    Post subject: These are for the most part shocking revelations on the apalling situation that pervades modern day Russia, but not when you understand that Russian xenophobia is born out of nothing but fear(sound familiar?). The main reason for this is that after Perestroika, the only thing that could keep Russians in check was the Mafia, and for a number of years fear of their brutality helped keep the country from completely disintegrating(even though their practises were effectively doing just that). One day, Mr Putin came into power riding on a wave of fervent nationalism, so the average Russian who had no option but to keep their mouths shut during this period, suddenly found they had a voice. Nationalist rantings became the order of the day(ironically, shadowing the very words of Joseph Stalin, a Caucasian), and average nobody Russians found their nerve expanding, largely upopposed, in a way they had only previously dreamt of. Pretending to be democratic had never been so much fun. But suddenly all the former SU countries who Russians had enjoyed great influence in, like the Baltics and the Eastern Bloc, started sticking two fingers back up to Russia, and of course this hurt Russian pride, so people thought they had no choice but to look to find somewhere else they might control.. their own country. This only added to the simmering situation, and the resulting confusion made ridiculous situations part of the norm. However, this norm soon backfired on Russia, as is apparent in places such as Khazakstan, Estonia(and many others), and the opinion of the rest of the world who have become utterly disgusted by Russia's treatment of her own people. Even in places such as Ukraine and Belarus, there are people, and surprisingly many within the younger generation, who almost view Russia as a swear word. Which can't be good, when you consider that these countries have always historically been viewed as 'Russia' more than modern day Russia ever was. Perhaps the only foreign country Russia doesn't feel so much xenophobia for is Serbia (whose link to Russia was never through Red Army expansion, merely through Tito's imposed Communistic ideals.. genetically speaking Serbs are no different to Ottoman Turks), so it's not as if present day cordialities are going anywhere fast either. Ironically, ethnic Russians in the Caucasus were treated the best. Which is why when the strike was ordered against Chechnya, many ethnic Russians refused to leave, because they had made such good friends with their warm Chechen neighbours, they didn't want to leave them behind. These very people were then subjected to the exact same treatment as the Chechens, being thrown in concentration camps, abused and far, far worse, on the pretext that they were 'traitors' and did not deserve to live. So if there is anything to be learnt from Russia's booming xenophobia, it is that when you know you have your glory days well and truly behind you; it's better to stand down with dignity rather than stay upright at a very funny angle.
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wavetossed WayToRussified Joined: 27 Jun 2004 Posts: 339	Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: In any country you can pick a few isolated incidents and use them to paint a picture that is far removed from reality. The things that you mention happen in the USA too. They happen in Canada. They happen in the UK. These things are meaningless in and of themselves. Russians of african ancestry don't feel threatened, black american tourists don't feel threatened. That's because crime in Russian cities is less common than crime in American cities. And like American cities, most crime is restricted to a few poor neighborhoods far from the places that tourists will visit.
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Xela VIP Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 781 Location: Shanghai	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:12 am    Post subject: Wavetossed, I came to thinking that you were obviously not thinking straight when you suggested any sort of comparison with Britain.. nevertheless, you completely missed my point. Regarding your second paragraph, and whilst I would very much like to live in the world as you see it, I vehemently believe you need to re-read vettra's post again.
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: [wavetossed] >> In any country you can pick a few isolated incidents and use >> them to paint a picture that is far removed from reality. >> things that you mention happen in the USA too. .. They happen >> in the UK. A couple of points: *.) if America didn't start slavery, they wouldn't have the current black population, which hates the non-black side and attempts to isolate itself; and correspondingly, America would be one of the most crime-free countries in the world. Am I wrong? *.) UK: well known there is a lot of basic violence in that country. But this is a web site about Russia *.) "a few isolated incidents" - Yes of course it's not the over-all population, certainly not the majority. However, if you read some of the web sites I mentioned, the anti- foreigner mentality is much more rooted than the offhand dismissal your statements imply. *.) As to the "Klingon mentality" - I stand by that statement. It may not be necessarily a bad thing, but definitely different way of life, coming from California. My personal experiences confirm it. Most of the 3 years I've spent in the Soviet Union, I didn't have a $1000/month apartment paid for by the US government, or being coddled by overpaid landlords and shuttle drivers. I'm talking playing guitar on the street, where thugs approach me with various messages; seeing colleages come to work beat up (Lithuania); dealing with ex-KGB landladies who associate torture tactics and rent collecting, etc. If I was born in Russia, I wouldn't notice these things - it would all be part of the normal social fabric. Plus, I don't generally hang with expats or over-40 types. I see more young guys with too much testosterone and not enough cash for them to be nice. *.) on a day-to-day basis, life in Russia is fine. As you know, everybody is stone-faced, so if beneath the mask they are hating you, you will never know it. It's like East Africa vs West Africa: in Kenya, the natives are polite but they will never tell you how they really feel or what they think about you. Vs. guys from Zaire or Nigeria, they will party with you and talk non-stop (at least that was my impression). But, what I really want to know: is it possible to ride a waverunner from Yalta (Crimea) to Constanta (Romania)? Last edited by vettra on Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Xela wrote: ..after Perestroika, the only thing that could keep Russians in check was the Mafia, and for a number of years fear of their brutality helped keep the country from completely disintegrating Even in places such as Ukraine and Belarus, there are people..who almost view Russia as a swear word 2 points here: 1.) Ukrainians have always had a dislike for Russia. Always. I guarantee you that. And the feeling is mutual. There are many 2nd-generation Ukie-Americans that flat out say "Russia is the enemy". Simon Petlura is a hero to him, he was the appointed president when Ukraine was free for about 20 minutes sometime about 1917. During WWII, many Ukrainians celebrated like it was 1999 when the Germans invaded - freedom from Stalin's tyranny. BTW, Stalin engineered artificial famines that killed ~20 million in the USSR, primarily in the Ukraine. All wheat was shipped to Moscow, then returned to those that were loyal to Communism. Brilliant strategy for destroying one's enemies. Pictures of Ukrainians celebrating Nazi invasion: http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr64iii.htm This dislike is odd, given that Russia has *always* controlled the Ukraine (well at least since 1450 or so). Prior to that, bubonic plague wiped out Europe from 1347 - ~1400, but not Poland. Poland-Lithuania had a moment of glory in the 1400's, extending all thru Belarus and deep into the Ukraine, which they later lost to the Russians, and others. Poland managed to escape the plague (hence their power grew) since the people - scattered farmers - didn't group into cities much, like most of Europe. in other words, because they were hillbillies they became strong. 2.) the roots of the "Klingon mentality" dates back to the Czars (according to Woody Allen, the Russian revolution started when the people learned that the Tsar and the Czar were one and the same person). The Romanov government never got a full handle on controlling the crime syndicates in Russia (dates back to serfdom getting stronger after the bubonic plague / exact opposite effect from Western Europe.. but I digress). The Communists, even under Stalin, couldn't fully control it, they had their hands full with a revolution, and all their enemies trying to knock them off, such as the White Russian Army. This made it easy for Stalin to organize the KGB (NKVD, b4 1945) - Lenin desperately needed a strong-arm man. During WWII, huge numbers of imprisoned thugs were given the option to fight for the Red Army, and did. However after the war they were sent right back to prison. This led to the Сука wars ("bitch wars"), those that served were bitches who broke the thug code of honor. There were massive riots and killings in the prisons post-WWII. These gangs managed to survive in a very organized community (heavily restructured after the bitch wars) all the way into Breznev-Kosygin regime, which was a corrupt bearacracy. The USSR govt started caving in to people demanding some capitalism by allowing small shops and stores. the organized crime syndicates thrived by extracting money from this new class of enterpreneurs, much like the 1930's Al-Capone gangsters did with prohibition alcohol. By 1991, organized crime was very well set up - just in time for the government to recede during the 90's. I heard somewhere that Americans used to have genuine admiration for gangsters in the 20's - 30's. Deja vu; so it's not just a uniquely Russian phenomenon. Anyway, here you see there is a reason why Russia is the way it is today. Sorry for the long post - tried to condense a lot of history
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Odabo Frequent Guest Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 59 Location: Florida USA	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:22 am    Post subject: vettra wrote: A couple of points: *.) if America didn't start slavery, they wouldn't have the current black population, which hates the non-black side and attempts to isolate itself; and correspondingly, America would be one of the most crime-free countries in the world. Am I wrong? *.) UK: well known there is a lot of basic violence in that country. But this is a web site about Russia *.) "a few isolated incidents" - Yes of course it's not the over-all population, certainly not the majority. However, if you read some of the web sites I mentioned, the anti- foreigner mentality is much more rooted than the offhand dismissal your statements imply. *.) As to the "Klingon mentality" - I stand by that statement. It may not be necessarily a bad thing, but definitely different way of life, coming from California. My personal experiences confirm it. Most of the 3 years I've spent in the Soviet Union, I didn't have a $1000/month apartment paid for by the US government, or being coddled by overpaid landlords and shuttle drivers. I'm talking playing guitar on the street, where thugs approach me with various messages; seeing colleages come to work beat up (Lithuania); dealing with ex-KGB landladies who associate torture tactics and rent collecting, etc. If I was born in Russia, I wouldn't notice these things - it would all be part of the normal social fabric. Plus, I don't generally hang with expats or over-40 types. I see more young guys with too much testosterone and not enough cash for them to be nice. Thank God I haven't been seriously beaten up, like I've seen other guys get it. The one time I was knocked out cold, it was over a girl, I admit it was my own stupid fault. But the attack was very Russian style: the guy called his buddies and they slammed me in the dark. yes, of course British skinheads do that too. Remember when the Brits had a soccer match in Lithuania? In typical UK fashion, one of the drunk fans started a fight, which escalated to the whole group. The Lithuanians, in appropriate USSR fashion, simply swarmed them, like 10:1, and kicked the living shit out of all of them. *.) on a day-to-day basis, life in Russia is fine. As you know, everybody is stone-faced, so if beneath the mask they are hating you, you will never know it. So because no one says "fuck you" to your face, you think youre' in a rose garden? It's like East Africa vs West Africa: in Kenya, the natives are polite but they will never tell you how they really feel or what they think about you. Vs. guys from Zaire or Nigeria, they will party with you and talk non-stop (at least that was my impression when I was there). *.) Let me talk about "fuck you". Some recent Ukrainian immigrants I met in a bar here in Cleveland were moaning about being in America, and I was trying to explain that over there, it's rough for me. This was at Nikki's, a "UKie bar" - there are many various ethnic joints on the west side of Cleveland. Some regular beer-drinking good ol' USA boys were partying there and I showed them an experiment. One of ours came over, I stuck my finger in his chest and yelled "FUCK YOU!". He says to me "fuck you too" and offers me a beer. Try THAT on a Russian. The Ukie immigrant was amazed. As we know, anywhere from Warsaw to Vladivostok that brings you a fist in your mouth. I am convinced. Get help.
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:34 am    Post subject: My sentiments exactly Odabo!
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:02 am    Post subject: would somebody draw a map - probably can be done in Photoshop; the allies and enemies here? (I am on an island). The 2 above have joined flanks to commit to a frontal assault.
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:31 am    Post subject: Vettra, You're out of your mind, Why not go away in peace? You really have not been able to contribute to this forum in any sensible, meaningful way. It's time to visit the docs in your area and I am sure they will hook you up with the right pharmaceudicals. I am serious about this, Vettra needs help. And I hope he gets it.
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: <edited. It is YOU who is the annoying one. --mod>
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wavetossed WayToRussified Joined: 27 Jun 2004 Posts: 339	Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:01 pm    Post subject: Xela, I live in Britain so I know what I am talking about. Vettra mentions skinheads attacking a 9 year old girl in Russia. Well, yesterday in Britain a white teenager grabbed an asian baby from the carriage in front of the mother and punched the baby in the face. The baby required hospital treatment for the trauma. There are regular attacks on muslim bookshops and mosques, on jewish synagogues and graveyards. Black youths terrorize white kids and even beat up white adults. White racists beat up blacks and asians. It happens all over Britain. You know what else? There are thieves in Britain. There are murderers here and rapists. In Reading the rapists work as a group. Just recently another group of rapists started operations in another town. We have prisons full of all kind of criminals. And yet, I feel safe here. I take the bus through an area of London known as Murder Mile. But all these crimes happen so infrequently that most people do not need to worry about them. And in tourist areas, there is little crime. No need to worry. Come visit London on your way to Russia. Both places are safe.
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