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Russians Thoughts on the American Military Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 16, 17, 18  Next

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Filimon Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97	Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: 1) There are hundreds of occasions when the identity of key witnesses for prosecution are not disclosed in open hearings. Good example are evidence by children in cases against paedophiles and murder cases involving gang-related crimes(just last week 4 guys were convicted of murder of 2 girls in a gang shoot out in UK largely due to a testimony of a witness, whose face and voice were disguised when he was giving evidence). 2) I am not against the US. I have many American friends and colleagues, some of whom I really admire. I am totally against the US/UK policy in Iraq though. I voiced my opposition in one of the largest ever rallies in London along with over 1 million of other people. 3) There is no hate. Hate needs a a subject. USA is too abstract to be one. I don't like GW Bush, but that's my problem (I am not particularly fond of Putin either). My disgust at the situation in Iraq stems from the fact that instead of dealing with Saddam within the remit of the law, the US tried to stretch the law to cover their needs. I know, I know, they used lawyers to do that, but lawyers can also be different. In fact, my case is stronger due to the fact that when stretching the law did not help, the US government dismissed the UN as a non-entity and proceeded to do their own thing. This is really worrying. I did say in some forum, that I would have accepted the stance on behalf of the States, if they'd said: "We are going for Saddam, cos' he is an evil bastard, who kills his own people, sits on heck of a lot of oil and does not let anyone to go near it." That would have been honest. It would have still been in breach of the law, but hey, who are we to tell the US what to do, right? Problem is, the position the US put themselves throws us back to feudalism, if not further back. It seems that with all its might, both financial and intellectual, the US simply cannot figure out the way to convince the world that democratic values are not bad. I find very sad.
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MrSpice Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431	Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:23 pm    Post subject: Many of the Americans also disagree on the War in Iraq. In fact, recent polls indicate that 54% of Americans feel that the war was a mistake and only 50% approve of Pres. Bush's performance. So, the war in Iraq is a different matter. All that talk that America is not a democracy are crap: you look logically and objectively at the system of government, the legal system, freedom of the press and speech, the ability of a regular person to influence what is happening in his town/state, the ability to do business (including having a small business) and be protected by law - the US is one of the most democratic countries there is. There are many things America can do better, often much better whether it's foreign policy and relaltions with other countries, medical care or budget deficits, but democracy is not one of the problems here.
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Slavnori, You keep contradicting yourself, le me remind you some of your posts : you first claim you agree the topic "my nation, my fight" is off topic then you keep bringing it back in here Quote: I suggest you start a new thread about this slavnori, since the topic of this one is about american military. Your right Vorteks, and I will take your suggestion. Thanks......... You attack Filimon personally then you claim you don t target him Quote: ... I think we need to also have the countries of Filimon... Filimon...when I might change the subject to bring up your country for discussion you come back with a smart ass remark to look at the topic name to explain the onesidedness. ...refusing to list your country was mainly meant for Vortek... To reply to your remark, since i m namely invited to do so, i don t shine up my nationality as war medal simply because...i m not nationalist and deeply distrust this behaviour, but any frequent poster on this board knows my culture. Why should everhthing be served up to you at demand when you can use your intelligence to browse posters messages and find out by yourself? And nop, we are not talking about anti americanism here, but about anti nationalism, and more generally, distrust against any ideology that tends to hinder people s ability to think rationally by using affective arguments. If you check my messages history, you ll find out that I did travel in the US more than many americans will in a lifetime, enough to meet many trusting people strong enough to avoid to become victims of mind manipulation. On another side, I do abhore, like many people, to be taken for an idiot, and when US authorities claim to invade a sovereign country for the benefit of all and at the same time in retaliation of 11/9 events, with speeches tinted of manipulative bigottery, i point out we are talking about nationalism and this is a dangerous evolution. Just like Filemon, when Torpedo abandons his formated "we save the world "speech to admit that USA has an uncontested striking power and uses it to for its own interests, irrespectively of its international engagements and human lives, then the speech is coherent with actions, and I have nothing to reply. The world will just have to adapt and create it s own means of defense against this new unilateral reality, with new balance of power agreements. Last edited by vorteks on Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Filimon Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97	Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: I also found quite interesting the comment of torpedo about the Russian missiles aimed at the US. He says: "but we don't attack Russia, we negotiate". So if someone points WMD at you - you negotiate? Well if Iraq had 45 minutes capabilities (i.e. aimed missiles at US) why not negotiate with Iraq? Why risk an attack in retaliation for an attack? I put it to the supporters of the Iraqi invasion that the US government knew from the outset that Iraq posed no threat, because had it been the case the US would not attack it for the same reason it does not attack Russia.
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torpedo_eight Frequent Guest Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 18 Location: Broad Ripple, USA	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Quote: I do abhore, like many people, to be taken for an idiot - vorteks So let's see: you're accused me of having my mind manipulated, having my speeches formatted for me by my cruel puppet masters and generally being a dolt - all because you don't agee with what I'm saying. I've been posting here for less than a week, I didn't grow up with you and sorry, I have a job, I don't have several hours to read every post to see where you mentioned your country - forgive me for that. Understand that if you reserve the right unilaterally to take me for an idiot, there's no reason to be on this board unless you're enamored of your own pontifications (a clear possibility). Every post is going to be about your superiority and my stupidity - wonderful. If you were a bit less of a pompous ass about it, we could actually admit certain points the other has made make sense, rather than have you discern in me moments of lucidity where suddenly I make sense because you're able to manipulate what I've said into an admission of nationalist guilt/insecurity/blind faith. America isn't some monolithic entity where everyone spouts the same mantra. There's plenty of opposition to what's happened in Iraq and, like you, I stuggle to make sense of everything. I must combine what I know and surmise what I do not. I don't get a week list of talking points. I'm just another human being. Why don't you grant others the simple possibilty that we too, have free will and opinions that differ from yours? Do you really think you're making a point by labeling me an idiot and a dolt? Is this how you resolve conflict in your hate-free environment? This is how you make points? How sad.
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torpedo_eight Frequent Guest Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 18 Location: Broad Ripple, USA	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject: Quote: He says: "but we don't attack Russia, we negotiate". So if someone points WMD at you - you negotiate? Well if Iraq had 45 minutes capabilities (i.e. aimed missiles at US) why not negotiate with Iraq? Why risk an attack in retaliation for an attack? I put it to the supporters of the Iraqi invasion that the US government knew from the outset that Iraq posed no threat, because had it been the case the US would not attack it for the same reason it does not attack Russia. - Filimon You're kidding, right? There's a huge difference in confronting an emerging nuclear power (Iraq) vs. a confirmed nuclear power (Russia) - say 30 to 40 million killed - the worst conflagration in world history. What the Rand Corporation termed Mutually Assured Destruction. You're telling me you don't see the difference? Because Saddam was unseated, the threat is removed. He was attacked precisely because of what we didn't know. OTOH, Russia is not attacked precisely because of what we do know. Besides, we don't have any beef with Russia, we're not 2 minutes from midnight like we were in the early '60s. Putin hasn't intimated lately that he'd like to blow Israel off the face of the planet or lob one into Turkey for kicks. You don't attack countries because they possess WMDs, you attack because there's a good chance they'll use them on you. Going in early saves you a possible retaliatory nuclear strike. The longer you wait, the longer the odds become. Which is why Israel will be hitting Iran before the end of the year if negotiations fail. Race you to the moral high ground!
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Filimon Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: So, let me get thois straight: the only reasons you do not attack Russia are 1) Russia poses no immediate threat; 2) it is a confirmed state with capabilities to retaliate. US attacked Iraq because it said it posed immediate threat, but WAS NOT confirmed as having capabilties to retaliate? Is that what you're saying? Is it only me who sees a total design flaw in this argument? Doesn't it sound like an oxymoron? I repeat my request: reply to arguments, stop making personal remarks. I have nothing against you personally, so I do not see why you should have anything against me. Go blow off some steam in a gym or something, then come back and reply.
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vettra Lounge Lizard Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 123 Location: Cleveland	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:37 pm    Post subject: Dr Fauste wrote: I know in Canada, we think American military men are generally narrow minded idiots .. people outside of USA think less of American soldiers than they think of the average americans. I went airsofting last week-end (like paintball), complete w. genuine Desert Storm camo uniform. Funny reactions around Atlanta afterwards: being called "Sir!" at Wal-Mart. Bar reaction - little white punk college kids at Little 5 Points absolutely hating me... even though i was never military. Black bar (Stone Mountain) - no negativity. Never occured to me how shallow/superficial so many Americans are. Makes me prefer being outside of America. I suppose if I wore a turban I'd be hated. Seems like a lot of people just juamp at every chance to hate somebody. Hate, hate, hate. People can be so disgusting (not to mention the huge volume of crud jumping at every chance to insult others at this web site). As to how awful USA military is - oh they are the worst. Much better the Paki army, or Columbian FARC, or Mexican cops. I mean, they are saints, right, every army and warlord except American army? I mean... you really can't stop talking about America, and its military...
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slavnori Frequent Guest Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 30 Location: San Palo	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: US Military Vorteks, What you see is not a contridiction, it is me changing my mind, and deciding not to take your suggestion. I really saw no reason why I should start a new thread since this one is off subject anyway. You have a terrible habit of twisting words to suit your purpose. Also, please show me where I personally attacked Filimon. I made a statement towards his comment that was not a personal attack. If you are so interested in attacks, why don't you read my post history, and you will see I never have attacked anyone, any country, or culture on this board. As for serving me up anything, I never asked you too. If I ask you a question I will put a question mark at the end of the sentence. You know Vortek, I really don't care where you are from, and your broken record statements, and comebacks are not that important for me to go back and read your past post to find out where you are from. I made the statement concerning posting countries of origin because I consider it respectful, and polite to do so. I really don't see how posting your country of origin would make you a nationalist, or anything else for that matter. As for someone taking you for an idiot, it isn't me. I think you are an intelligent fellow who thinks he has the only truth, the only one with the right way to anything. And I see you as being possibly a very dangerous person. You will notice in this statement above there are no questions. Filimon, thanks for your listed reply. You proved there are some circumstances where the accused cannot face the accuser. But this is a simple forum not a murder case. Personally I just odn't understand how posting one's country of origin would turn anyone into a nationalist, or a toad. No matter, I'm not going to push the jubject. I do not agree with you on very much of what you have posted, but you have enlightened me on some matters. I do have some questions on the UN since that subject reoccurs often, but for now I have more pressing matters to attend too.
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: Torpedo,could you tell me who spit those insults to his contradictors? Quote: but there's little I can do for your pre-conceived constructs of reality Our little brothers to the north really do need to get an identity Don't expect the little cowards to say a word about where they might be from speaking the truth to these midgets is watering a dead plant. Hate and envy has plugged their ears and blinkered their eyes. I just don't have any affinity for cowards You're starting to sound like a crusty old commie How can you complain to sound like a monosynaptic nationalist when you arent able to show any respect to people desagreeing with you and descript them as seen thru shrinking spectacles while using affective arguments. You are accusing others of your own vices. We agree at least on one point : we won t agree on this topic, I just hope we could help you understand how the foreign american policy since 2001 has deeply modified the worldwide perception of your nation and spread distrust even amongst your closest allies populations. IMHO, the crises did help Europe realise that it was time to accelerate our construction to get the means to claim independant opinions, since we were entering an era where force prevailed against right. The elaboration of the european constitution is certainly a direct result of this mutually agreed divorce. Last edited by vorteks on Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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torpedo_eight Frequent Guest Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 18 Location: Broad Ripple, USA	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Filimon - My last reply was a response to arguments, there were no personal remarks in it (like 'why don't you go blow off some steam in the gym?' - that's not very personal, is it? ) The US does not attack Russia for the same reason England doesn't attack France - there's no motivation. After the UN weapons inspectors were kicked out of Iraq, we no longer had a handle on what was developing - and we decided we couldn't take a chance. Tell me how long Russia would sit back if they thought Chechnya was working on its own bomb. A couple of years? If you had no way of knowing, would you assume the worst? Or just figure 'They're not experts at this, their attempt will probably fail". Ignore your avowed enemies at your peril. It's easy to be the sidewalk superintendent on this one - no one's dropped a couple of the tallest building in Moscow yet. I understand your point of view, but we don't have the luxury of time any more. What we don't know can hurt us.
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torpedo_eight Frequent Guest Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 18 Location: Broad Ripple, USA	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:08 pm    Post subject: vorteks, Better yet, the US needs to remove all military from Europe. It's time Europe foots the bill for its own defense. And yes, you're right, I'm a monosynaptic nationist and you're a midget. Now that we have the insults out of the way, perhaps Europe can continue to build the Workers Utopia. I realize fully that US actions have accelerated the distrust of this government, but I also know you can't make everyone happy, especially when it comes to invading other sovereign states to protect yourself. So when al Qaeda sets off the big one in your country, call Brazil. We can't be trusted. And you know we have no history of fishing your cajones out of the fire, right? I'd like to stay and talk, but I have to get over to Dick Cheney's house so we can plan the invasion of Luxembourg. Have fun with your independent opinions.
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Filimon Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject: Slavnori, by the same token I cannot see how the origin of a person, whether countrywise, ethnic or of any other nature, has any bearing whatsoever on his/her opinion? Would your attitude towards me be different if I said I was a fighter pilot from Uzbekistan? Or a goat herder from Armenia? Or a peacekeepr from US... wait, I forgot they don't exist Torpedo, going to the gym was just a bit of friendly advice. You seem quite uptight when it comes to discussing US military (a direct topic of this forum, BTW). Your assertion that you had 'no handle' in Iraq is wrong. Just before the US invasion weapons inspectors were right there in Iraq, they begged for more time and had to leave to escape the bombing. Just before the invasion Iraq produced a massive dossier explaining what happened to the chemical weapons, which, incidentally, the US supplied in the first place. US/UK dismissed the dossier as lies, but no WMD were ever found, just as that dossier said. Please read news archives, you will find all that info there. Chechnya is a shame of Russia. I hate the way our government dealt with it (and still dealing, after all that time, it's unbeleivable). However, I resent drawing parallels between Chechnya and Iraq. Chechnya is a federal entity, just like any state of the USA. That particular entity started massive genocide against ethnic Russians in 1991-1993, when people were first fired and thrown out of flats and houses and then raped and murdered without any investigation ever being held over it. This fact is conveniently forgotten by the Human Rights Groups and western media. In that period over 110,000 ethnic Russians left Checnhya. I know that because many of them settled in or near my hometown on the Black Sea. That's what prompted Yeltsin to move troops in. The rest is a separate topic. So to answer your question: you are comparing the incomparable. If Chechnya had not become a war zone, any activities in "makin a bomb" would have been easily monitored. It's not the same as assembling a grenade launcher, you know. As things stand Russia is still fighting this useless war, so any question of "what would have happened" is kind of irrelevant, don't you think? As for "no tall buildings fell in Moscow" - please tell me you are kidding!!! Three apartment blocks were bombed with people sleeping in them, a theatre was held hostage, a bomb went off in Moscow tube, another at a rock concert, another in central Moscow, yet another killed an officer trying to diffuse it. Don't bloody tell me we don't know what it's like!!! You are right, you cannot make everyone happy. Your government though went further than that: it made everyone UNhappy. I personally adored the States for the freedom it seemed to represent, for the democratic values it seemed to stand for. Do you think I changed my mind overnight?? Last edited by Filimon on Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Filimon Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject: torpedo_eight wrote: vorteks, Better yet, the US needs to remove all military from Europe. It's time Europe foots the bill for its own defense. And yes, you're right, I'm a monosynaptic nationist and you're a midget. Now that we have the insults out of the way, perhaps Europe can continue to build the Workers Utopia. I. Please provide a source showing that the US presence in Europe saves Europe money on defence. It is quite a strong statement.
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:10 pm    Post subject: By making an amalgaming analogy between the russian presence in Chechnya and the american presence in Irak, Torpedo concedes that the motivation of the invasion is the control of fossile energy resources. Since Russia doesnt claim to be a democracy, it doesnt need to go into the war on terrorism hypocrisy, at least no russian believes it. They can be divided about Chechnya being or not legitimatly russian territory, but all know it s about black gold... And I agree, there is no reason for the US army to stay in E.U, and it s time for europeans to finance and develop a common defense independant from NATO (which was started by France, Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg, followed in 2004 by Spain, Italy and GB) with the EU Rapid Reaction Force ). What prevented from developing it earlier was the legal impossibility for germans soldiers to intervene on foreign ground. Once the european constitution is adopted, giving powers to a european ministry of defense, the european army will be legitimate and ready to welcome more members. Of course, it will make things a bit more difficult for US to intervene in the middle east and eurasian oil fields for obvious logistical reasons
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