Way to Russia Community and Forum

cyndy22 · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:40 am Post subject:

All of you are very intelligent men, yet some are a little more stubborn and belligerent than others.

Vortex,
You know as well as I do that US is a DEMOCRACY. Sure it's not perfect but can you think of anything in life that has perfect qualities indefinitely?

Your argument sweet heart about not wishing to reveal your country because "you are not a nationalist" is BS plain and simple. But I know you are not a coward by any means.

Everyone wants a scapegoat right? I question if the UN has really has any power or ever had. It is great in theory but I don't know about reality.

Reality is very different, always in flux and especially re world politics is VERY COMPLICATED. Just Think how hard it can be to communicate with people you know sometimes, let alone foreigners who have very different values etc.

I know women aren't perfect either but once in a while I wonder if women were more in charge of global issues, maybe we would come to middle gound more? Except for those who may suffer from PMS ETC.! Razz

vorteks · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject:

Cindy,

As asked by other members, spare us your motherish "sweetheart" remarks and keep them to feed your child s self confidence.

You know my culture which has never been concealed, echoing a setlled argument is irrelevant.

UN is a diplomatic platform whose purpose is to solve conflicts BEFORE they occur. It s achievements are of course much less mediatic and crunchy than armed conflicts, but much more cost effective and respectful of human rights . Military interventions are meant to be the very least solutions when all other attempts have been exhausted. In terms of right, there is no difference between a "preemptive war" and an military aggression, since the invasion is not based on evidences but on arbitrary allegations.

This topic has gone from US military seen by russians to US international policy and then global international policies. If you want to start a thread about the difference between a plutocracy and a democracy, you can either start a new topic or visit a specific forum like http://smirkingchimp.com/viewtopic.php?topic=7989&forum=6. You must understand that when you claim to be a champion of democracy, want to force your values up other cultures throat, and keep arrogantly criticizing other systems while being their guest (like in russia for example), you can expect to be challenged about your examplarity in this domain. Humility is the best evidence of intelligence.
Competency is not a question of sex, it s a question of brain structure and energy. Women do have responsabilities at the highest levels, but their specificity often force them to halt their carreers prematurely to give birth...which is incompatible with the demanding requierements of a political life. I remember cat fights on this forum where the name callings could make anybody doubt that a matriarcal global society would lead to a more apeased world Very Happy

cyndy22 · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject:

Vortex,
My endearing little words of affection are not meant to be motherly. You misunderstand honey! Smile

But ok if these words offend you, I'll refrain from using them with my postings to you.

You are however starting to sound like a broken record with all of your dribble on this subject, like Father knows best. You my friend, (oh maybe that term offends you too), are an idealist and that is all good and well but not all realistic and practical. And your continued whining by the way especially with regard to your culture/country what ever that may be when people are just curious, is quite childish. But there are a number of children on this forum.

vorteks · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject:

Your affective assumptions don t unfortunatly leave much room for a constructive argumented debate. If placing right above force is utopic, then i m a proud idealist legitimist and your so central juridical system collapses on its fundations Looks like what is regarded as a basic constitutional right inside the US becomes a faulty hinderance outside : the right for the weaker to defend himself against a bullying lobby. Another double standard incoherence that can only encourage terrorism

cyndy22 · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject:

Thats interesting! How are you the only one that is right? Kind of reminds me of intellectualism in academia where professors spew out their rself righteus theories on how things are supposeed to work. Then you step into the real world and what a surprise, things are just not that simple, clear or one sided. I find it also interesting that you seem to speak like you are the authority on how Russians think of American military. I don't think you are Russian, though I guess you could be. But I doubt it. And don't say that whether you are Russian or not is irrevelant, because I think if you want to speak on behalf of popular opinion in Russia, some credablity is warranted.

Regarding my comments on women as possible more effective leaders in global diplomacy, I was referring to the fact that women as a rule focus more so on relationships than men. It's a cultural thing between the sexes and originates in childhood. Also women, perhaps because they do give birth and are mothers and generally has close knit relationships with their children, are more hesitant to employ military tactics that will result in death and destruction. OI course not all women are the nurturing types. Certainly there are many who are quite cunning and ruthless. Remember Scarlett! If she was in fact a woman that is. Smile

vorteks · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:36 pm Post subject:

The self righteous simplified one sided theory was the presence of wmd in Iraq, the reality their absence...In that case, the majority of nations that chose to trust UN inspectors reports were right. Get the facts straight
I guess Gondoliza Rice is to be classified in the same trans gender category as well then Very Happy

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:51 am Post subject:

This topic has been very enlightening. I learned something about myself as well as what others opinions are about Americans in general. I have to say that now I am more inclined to have a more positive regard for military troops, especially American troops who take alot of abuse by people in other countries. While I have always in the past taken a very cynical view of military, this discussion has made me re-examine my attitude and thoughts. I know that there are some of you and I won't mention any names, who will never budge an inch in their pre-conceived thoughts and opinions of US and military. Why then do we even debate?? That's what I mean about finding common ground, and ACTUALLY I can't take credit for that. Slavorni and Torpedo are responsible for introducing this very humane concept.

Guess I am getting weary however of the discussion in the sense that it is circular and sadly at least to me, that my friends on WTR continue to not only have prejudiced sentiment and regards about American military in world politics but Americans. And FTR, statistics that some of you have spitted out like your own perverse version of ammo on this thread are BS.

Filimon · Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97

Cyndi, there is no prejudice whatsoever. Whatever US military is doing in Iraq is not the fault of the boys who are actually there. I have a great respect for those who are prepared to risk their lives in the name of their country, more so because despite having spent almost 6 years wearing uniform and having attained the rank of the lieutenant of Naval Reserve, I would not be prepared to do that myself save for very exceptional circumstances.

I would also like to take your point of self-righteous professors. In my view it's the governments that play this role (and I include UK and Russia in here). They give you all that pathetic drivel about "bringing democracy to others" or "freeing the land of terrorists", whilst the underlying reason for their decision is always one and he same: money.

It's your guys in Baghdad who are in the real world. Your government is a snooty professor who isn't but pretends he is there too.

"And the thing that scared me most
Was when my enemy came close
And I could see that his face looked just like mine"
(c) Bob Dylan

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject:

Filimon,
I agree that money is a huge factor in US politics over all, but thats true with all countries. US is more capitalistic perhaps and wasteful in terms of using natural resources. But US also gives out millions of dollars in aid. I guess the US is the best and the worst in many ways.

US Govt., sure the rhetoric Bush spits out is similar to a professor sitting in his ivy tower.

By the way, my husband was telling me this morning that Bush has asked Congress to push tort reform and limit damages for plaintiffs. The Republican party is about big business and money.

Filimon · Lounge Lizard Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 97

I agree. Bush administration is the great protector of corporate sharks. This step is yet another proof of it.

torpedo_eight · Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:26 am Post subject:

cyndy - As a result of unlimited damage factors in court cases, try to find a OB-GYN in Florida to deliver your baby. They are as rare as hen's teeth and many women have to deliver in neighboring states. As a result of high court judgements and subsequent malpractice insurance hikes, a total of zero neurosurgeons practice in Chicago. Everyone looks at this issue as if the fat cats are protecting themselves. No one takes into account the real consequences of suing people out of business - guilty or innocent.

When my wife had morning sickness, she couldn't take the most effective drug for it because its manufacturer had pulled it from the market. Seems every time there was something/anything wrong with the baby, the parents sued this drug manufacturer. Fair? Of course not - but no one accused juries in the US of being way too intelligent.

On another subject, asking a socialist to explain a capitalist's motivation is like asking a hooker for a definition of marriage. You're going to get an answer, but it's mostly projection. Sure, sure, America does everything for money. That's why we've taken over Afghanistan, Iraq, Grenada, Panama, the Phillipines, New Guniea, Japan and Germany and have never left.

I can understand the cynicism - but I'm not buying the projection. Americans are not imperialists - as Colin Powell noted, the only land America asks for is enough to bury its dead. Ask vorteks where our plot is located in his country. He should know.

vorteks · Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject:

Torpedo,

We agree on another point. The withdrawal of US troops from Iraq is not scheduled and never was The dissonance between the speach and the facts is one reason of the global distrust, added to the rise of unhibited nationalist reactions inside the country.

You forgot Italy in your listing Very Happy

From 1945 on, the presence of american troops in E.U was consensually well accepted by local populations, since it contributed to the NATO common defense and there was mutual respect shown in international instances. The 2003 UN crises deeply changed the perception of USA, now identified as unilateralist and nationalist, and US forces are regarded as a foreign body in the european construction. Expect US bases to be relocated further east under governments pressure in the coming years,

I also wonder how long russians will keep a low profile witnessing the rapid development of american bases on their borders in former soviet republics, from Ukraine to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan or Kyrgyzstan, while steadily financing political unrest (pro american lobbies ethnicities) in those freshly independant fragile countries.

Questions arise as well about potential conflicts of interest with China, and its investments in central asia to diversifiate its supplies of energetic resources. You are sowing the seeds of 21th century international conflicts, blindly lead by your thirst of petrodollars (real geopolitics), ehh, i meant your holy combat against terrorism (idealistic interventionism) Rolling Eyes

torpedo_eight · Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject:

vorteks · Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:30 am Post subject:

Torpedo,

If some germans resented the presence of NATO troops on their ground (from Western Europe, USA and Canada), they were certainly a minority till 2003, since they were part of this defensive force. NATO forces in Europe have never been a dissuasive force but an intervention force, at least since the 60s, our nuclear arsenal is dissuasive enough.. Should I remind you that US opposed the development of a european nuclear dissuasive force, I m unsure we should be thankful for this. Don t worry for european forces, they have been working together in NATO for quite a while, only commandment will change. The independant satellite positioning system will allow Europe to develop its own technologies.Did you notice how you very "unconsciously" but very patrioticly mix NATO and US army?

You look misinformed on how Europe tried to adapt to the rise of oil prices in the 70s. The alternative energies were taken very seriously, especially hydroelectricity and nuclear energy. Meanwhile all forms of energy saving strategies were developed, from housing to transport. While USA was increasing its energetic dependance on fossile energies, due to the pressure of oil lobbies, Europe was working on and reaching its energetic independance.

Your accusations about european "cut deals" during the embargo are very similar to the accusation of presence of WMD in Iraq, unfounded assumptions to legitimate unilateral greed. The "When you want to kill your dog, suspect it to have rabbies" criminal strategy. Not very elaborated but convincing enough for undereducated nationalist minds.

Be reassured, there would be way too much work to clean up the american mess. May be you should start caring about the imbalance of powers inside your own nation rather than selling ideologic lies to a feared population to justify foreign interventionism. We just expect sincerity, respect and global cooperation, but I guess even those basic human values are too much to ask to a plutocracy.

Btw, do you define China as a rogue nation? If so, why is it one of your main trading partners and why do you ow them most of your abyssal public debt ($90,000/ household) that funds your military spendings?

torpedo_eight · Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:38 am Post subject:

vorteks, Yes, I remember clearly the day the oil lobby was out to my house to encourage me to use as much of it as I wanted. Wink

With no contact whatsoever with this country, it's just amazing what a grasp you have of just how things work here. Confused

And there was nothing unconscious about associating NATO with the US Army. The US Army is part of NATO, last time I checked.

So Europe's using no fossil fuels whatsoever. Amazing. And you're completely energy independent. I'm learning so much from you.

Unfortunately, I learned how to bullshit in the 2nd grade and have since moved on to other things, but thanks for the lesson. You say you expect sincerity, but how would someone as cynical as you recognize it? No matter what I've offered, whatever I've said is a lie or dribble from my undereducated nationalist mind - right?

According to you. Really thought we could have an meaningful exchange here, but your socialist dogma's too thick to cut. Pehaps you're just here to run monologues with the unwashed masses. Shocked

Enjoy your unemployment, your 35 hour work week and your stagnant economy. We'll find some way to muddle on without your laser-sharp insight and totally open mind. And then maybe someday you can stop loving your country and hating mine. ( Laughing

Where have I heard that before?)

Au revoir, mon ami.

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