Way to Russia Community and Forum

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

The West (or really the western media) hate his guts while Russians seem to like him. What do you guys think? Is he doing a good job? Is he the good guy many Russians paint him out to be?

renwan · Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 204

No. he is an opressor corrupt dictator.

Katyara · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:09 am Post subject:

i don't love him and i don't hate him either... he is better than Eltsin... at least he is not an alcoholic like everybody knew Eltsin was!
well, he visited our island once since the day he got voted president...
why do western people "hate his guts"?

Vic · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:30 am Post subject:

I think he is the best leader Russia has had in a very long time and one of the best leaders in the world right now. I don't "Love him" because that would be gay Wink

, but I support him 99.9%. Lol, I shook his hand several weeks ago when he, Minister of Sport Fetisov and Minister of Defence Ivanov came to look at the new CSKA sport comlpex. Pretty cool.
Katya - the reason the west hates him is because he does not bow down to their interests and is not their puppet and because he (often) goes to the extent of screwing them to some extent. Just look at the U.S.' illegal invasion of Iraq, Putin was doing everything in the U.N. to screw them and then supplied weapons to the Iraqi resistance (ok, we deny it, but we all know very well what happened). It isn't a bad thing that they don't like him in the west, its actually a good one Laughing

Remember how they liked Yeltsin? See my point?
Vic

mister_wizzz · VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582

Vic · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject:

What are you talking about? You've never seen him smile? Well, maybe when he meets with the OSCE he doesn't smile, but I've seen him smile plenty of times even at press conferences. I've also NEVER heard him use any derrogatory term or swear, so no reason to "stop translating him". You must have him mixed up with Zhirinovsky. In fact, he usually has an upbeat personality and is pretty active.
Vic
P.S. I find it amusing how he slouches in his chair when he is listening to somebody during a personal meeting Very Happy

kinda like implying "Ok, I'm bored, now when are you going to shut up?"

mister_wizzz · VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582

No, it wasn't Jirinovski, by the way any country representative take him seriously. Sure it was Putin, last year, to a question from an American (I am not sure about his nationality) journalist about Chechnya.
Putin told him those words : "if you seemed like chechen so much you should have gone there and cut your dick like Muslim do."
It was quite unbelievable situation, the translator was very ambarrassed and didn't seem what to do but everything Putin said has been subtitled on TV.

You didn't see there on Russian TV ? This don't really surprise me.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Vic: I live in the "West" - in the United States. I can assure you that very few people hate him here. Most average people don't really care about Russian affairs and would probably not even know who the president of Russia is. Those people that do care probably think like me that he made significant changes to the better in Russia - helped created create order, promoted reforms and free markets, moved Russia well along toward free and democratic state. However, over the last 1-1.5 years, there has been a steady slide from the democratic reforms and Putin seems to be more concerned with his power now than with the democratic future of Russia. The TV nowadays as you know is no longer independent (I watch Russian TV - Channel 1 and 2 here sometimes - it looks almost like the newsprograms I used to watch when I was a kid in Soviet Union). The independence of all regions was suppressed with the abolishement of local election. Tax agency hit with tax claims many legitimate enterprises (recently, BP Amoco joint venture in Russia) which sent dollars leaving the country and foreign investors having serious doubts that Russia has any real promise. Not to mention Yukos affair - it was just like expropriation og property in the good old soviet times. I am surprised that seemingly smart people like you would not see any problem with Putin. Remember, Putin will not live forever and he will resign at some point in time. Even if we assume that he is an angel and the best person ever, the system of government he is creating is not a democracy, not a free and open society and he concentrated significant uncontrolled and unbalanced power in the president's hands. That can lead to serious problems in the future if someone else - much less commited to democracy than Putin - becomes Russian president.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

One more point: America has had many good and bad presidents over the last 200 years, but what made this country great and prosperous was the system of government where there's a strong sepration between 3 branches of government where the power of the president is large but still limited. At any time, the congress can override the president with large majority. The Supreme Court can deem any of his actions unconstitutional. The press cannot be controlled by the government by law and can embarrass and cirtisize anyone - the president, the congress - at any time. In fact, there were several major scandals involving US presidents because of TV reporting. Critical reporting is essential in order to keep those in power in check. You have to be troubled by the fact that all major TV stations in Russia are not independent and are in effect controlled by the government.

Vic · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject:

Well, I would not say the the U.S. system is idiot proof - look at it now. I realise that it is not Bush that is in control, that it is a group of people, but they are doing anything that they please and nobody seems to doing much against it, even if nearly half the nation does not support his decisions. There may be freedom of the press, but that does little good when the government just doesn't say covers up things that the public would not want to hear.
Now, I support the jailing of Khodorkovsky and think that they should also include Abramovich, Chubais and the whole gang in aswell. I sincerely hope that this falls into the long-term plans of the state. They did not "aquire" that property legally, so it is perfectly legal to "expropriate" it from them. Unfortunately, the western "free press" don't look into the past very often and look for a good story that sells much too often. I am not at all worried about his strengthening of power because it is much better than having some olygarh like Khodorkovsky trying to get power just for his own good, Putin is actually improving the situation for the people...so I think that if it works, do it. It beats having a "democratic" state by U.S. criteria that does not work...like Afghanistan or Georgia.

Mister_wizz:
Not saying that you are BSing here, but may I ask for a source? And a link? Putin does lash out at reporters asking stupid questions (Remember the Georgian reporter asking about Abkhazia during the presidential press meeting - but she deserved it. Putin would not say anything stupid like that about Chechnya and most definately about the Muslims because that is a 180 of his, and the government's policy. It would be even dumber than something Bush and Rumsfeld would say...if it were true.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Vic: With all due respect - you are missing the point. The fact that Bush has less than 50% supporting him is common in the west. In France, President Shirak has less than 30% approval rating. But Bush was chosem democratically according all the rules. The majority chose him, he did not just fall from the sky. He is limited to 2 terms and will leave in 3.5 years. As far as covering things up - the media did a pretty good job in uncovering many things that his administration tried to cover. Since you don't watch Aemrican TV regularly, you may not know about this. Also, don't forget that in America a lot of power - political and otherwiese - lies in the states. Each state has a governor who is sort of the president of that state and has a lot of power and also 2 branches of legislature. And all cities have democratically elected majors. And there are also state courts that control those. And even majors in large cities like New York are controlled by city counsil that is also elected every 4 years. So, the power of the president of the country over the average citizen in America is very limited. That is why many people don't even care who the president is.

As far as what you said that you feel that many of the "Perestroika"-time leaders should be jailed: It's fine to bring charges against people like Khodorkovsky or Chubais or Abramovich or anyone. However, there are 2 problems with this:
1) There is serious doubt that the trial was just and the evidence was there to convict Khodorkovsky on those charges. In fact, it was widely reported even in Russian press that the only reason Khodorkovsky was singled out were his political ambitions, not crimes. Even if we assume that what he has done was completely bad/illegal/inappropriate, people that did the same things and were close to the authorities, enjoy wealth and friendship with Putin and his colleagues. It's a dangerous slippery slope when you say "We don't care what he's guily of, he is bad, he is a crook, let's convict him of something" That's now how things are done in law-abiding democratic countries.
2) Most of the foundation of the Russian economy today is based in large part on the money made during this "wild" time. If you start jailing people, you will drive investment aborad. And it's already happening. And many of the tax claims made against well known firms are just bogus and have nothing to do with justice or fairness.

mister_wizzz · VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582

[quote="e"]

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I am glad some other people on this forum read the "Economist"
I think it's by far the best magazine about the conomy and foreign affairs.

Vic · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject:

MrSpice - It seems as if you have also missed my point. Putin's rate is over 60% right now. He was elected by the majority, in the first round, democratically. He will leave office in a little under 3 years. Bush gets his way, does not matter if the states themselves also have power. They do not seem to be doing too much to stop him while he is very quickly walking away from democracy. If the system is as good as you said, he would not have this chance.
The reason of Khodorkovsky's trial is not political. He HAS committed the crimes that he is charged of. You are right in saying that the fact that he started getting into politics did play a role in his trial. It is common knowledge that when Putin came into power, a deal was struck with the Oligarhs: I won't investigate your past dealings, you start playing fair (by the law) and keep your nose out of politics. Khodorkovsky felt that he was invincible, so he KEPT ON commiting fraud and KEPT ON evading taxes and then tried to buy out the Duma so that the new taxation laws would not be passed. So the investigation started and he was jailed. This is not political. Political would be: Khodorkovsky did everything by the book, did pay his taxes and did not commit any fraud, then he tried to get involved in politics and for that was put on trial for the bogus charges of tax evasion. As you know, this was not the case. The only reason Chubais, Abramovich and the gang aren't on trial is becaused they stopped spitting on the law, ofcourse nobody expects them to return the goods stolen in the 90's, but that's life, maybe after Khodorkovsky we will see these some of them behind bars aswell. I wouldn't say that they are "friends" of Puting though. Notice how the major banks, including CitiBank, which is probably gonig to loose up to $1 Billion because of Yukos was not scared off and is not making claims that this is all political?
You also claim that "And many of the tax claims made against well known firms are just bogus" How do you know this? Or are you an auditor who has thoroughly looked through their books and all of their dealings, after which you came to the conclusion that they did not cheat the state out of a single kopek? In which case, you are right, I am wrong.
The Economist is a pretty good magazine as it USUALLY has a pretty unbiased view, in some cases though, it doesn't.

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