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Vladimir Putin: Love him or hate him? Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 9, 10, 11  Next

Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Russian People

Author	Message
mister_wizzz VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582	Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: 60% of Russian voted for Putin, well may be... I don't contest. But it was really an election ? An election is to chose a political platform proposed by the applicants. How applicants can explain to people their polical platform ? Using mass media : TV, newspaper, radio. If only one applicant control all mass media, there is no more choice possible. Who's control mass media in Russia : Putin. An election should be fair by definition and "election" in Russia isn't.
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Varangian Frequent Guest Joined: 04 Apr 2005 Posts: 21 Location: Toronto, Canada	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Canuck View If 60% had voted for Putin and %40 for someone else, we in the West would have been quite encouraged about the health of democracy in Russia. For a healthy democracy, there needs to be a credible alternative. In the U. S. A., for instance, there were two credible alternatives in the last election, and yet for some reason they still chose Bush. As for Putin, the best we can say is, "It could be worse". As a Russian reporter said, "He has commited more errors than crimes." The economy seems to be improving in Russia, but is this just because of high oil prices and a moderate amount of stability? Then there are the never-ending dirty war in Chechnya, the Yukos affair, and the supression of regional autonomy. But it's hard to be too judgemental if his opponents can be reasonably described as terrorists, robber barons and local despots, respectively. During my trip to Russia, I saw a souvenir cup with a picture of Putin on it, reminiscent of the bric-a-brac which commemorate British royalty. I was amused. In Canada we have a prime minister, Martin. Feel free to make fun of him, if you happen to know anything about him.
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject: I m surprised how some russians still see the world as bipolar, opposing the "west" to Russia, even tho the last iraqi crises showed clearly a vast diversity of understandings of geopolics in the so called "west". Putin is the best thing that could happen to Russia after the Eltsin mess and oiligarch take over of the country, and unlike in USA, russians manage to oppose oil lobbies lethal influence to avoid to fall in the plutocracy trap. I don t know about the west of the west of Europe, that has not much european left except myths and legends, but what are denouncing medias in western europe is the lack of counter balance to Eltsin power and murders of journalists. Politicians show more distrust than any hate/love which are way too simplistic feelings to suit the diplomatic complexity and this certainly has to do with a tradition of brutality in russian foreign affairs. As China is proving, democracy is not necessary to develop wealth, so the lack of democracy in Russia can t be taken as an argument for negativity. I found a picture of Putin laughing to tears "Da, da, Gerhardt, you know that Dubya is hiding in a bunker because of a terrorist pigeon chemical attack on the white house?"
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:15 am    Post subject: Quote: think he is the best leader Russia has had in a very long time and one of the best leaders in the world right now. Geez, some people are just completely hopeless. Kat, just because you and your Russian cousins are too oblivious to it, doesn't mean it's not true. Russians are delirious if they think Putin is good for Russia. It's one thing for North Americans to be ignorant about him, the other Russian politicians and the oligarchs, but it's pretty sad when Russians are uninformed and oblivious as well. I've been reading about Putin and politics in Russia for quite some time and was basically unsure of Putin, his motives and had no opinion on him up to now. But, the latest readings have me convinced he is a two-faced B.S.'er who is not any different than most politicians. Not only that, he is just as evil as Bush. In case all of you are in a fog, Putin has quietly been financing most of the worst terrorists out there and the countries most likely to become terrorist states. But, then what can you expect from a country who has an even worse brainwashed populace than the United States'.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject: Quote: The economy seems to be improving in Russia, but is this just because of high oil prices and a moderate amount of stability? That is correct. Without the oil, their country would collapse. Have you read the recent news about Putin and his promises? This is easily accessible as it's been reported in both the mainstream and alternative presses. He is promising the world and saying all the right things. I predict in a few years time, he will blame somebody or something why he couldn't implement all these wonderful things.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Quote: 2) Most of the foundation of the Russian economy today is based in large part on the money made during this "wild" time. If you start jailing people, you will drive investment aborad. And it's already happening. And many of the tax claims made against well known firms are just bogus and have nothing to do with justice or fairness. I agree. Good post! It's one thing to want to limit foreign investment, for e.g. But, Russia already has a reputation for considerable unethical behavior, not just by business but also from government. They have a rather limited export market by the sounds of it. Then they have a President who is two-faced. He will say one thing and then the next day, something totally different is said.
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:57 am    Post subject: Quote: Putin has quietly been financing most of the worst terrorists out there and the countries most likely to become terrorist states. since when? You just seem to fall into the Russophobic "lets hate the Russian leader because he's "autocratic" and anti-"freedom"" like all the other naive people out there. There is no country in the world that doesn't control or restrict its media somewhat, or a government in the world thats free of a Quote: reputation for considerable unethical behavior For you Putin bashers out there: give us an alternative in Russia such Putin is such a bad bad man....
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject: Syria? Iran? Ring a bell, e? Now, Putin is involving the Palestinians with weapons? Don't try your typical con job of saying it's "Western propaganda" either on me. I read other news sources and I'm very skeptical of mainstream media. I don't like Bush or the American government either. You can't pigeonhole me as a "brainwashed American." I'm not even American. I just notice that so many people of other countries are always saying how their politician is different and always contrasting with Bush, for e.g. But, why is he better? He has not shown any signs. Instead of selling oil, weapons to rogue nations or at least, very questionable ones, why not take the high road? Why be like the United States (and how they supported terrorist-spawning nations like Saudi Arabia by investments and "friendly" business relations)? How can you support Putin with the information out there? Surely, you are someone of intelligence and can read between the lines? Putin should be concentrating on bettering Russian society and investing in his own country instead of financing other countries and people with ulterior motives. *edit* Quote: For you Putin bashers out there: give us an alternative in Russia such Putin is such a bad bad man.... That's your job. I'm not in Russia. I have limited sources. Even the most alternative media won't have a lot of reporting on alternate politicians. But, I know there will be an election soon and Putin supposedly has to wait a few years after it before he can run again. He said he won't but I don't believe him. Imho, he will get a puppet elected and then he and his oligarch buddies can profit still. Or they will get some puppet to hurt Russia so that Putin can make out to be a savior (since, they "know" what they have with him). I don't know who to tell you as an alternative. For one thing, I doubt anyone who's "different" could get elected anyway because he won't be allowed to. Anyone who's a worthy alternative probably wouldn't bring the same dollars $$. Sound familiar to us in the West?
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milonguero Frequent Guest Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 32 Location: San Francisco, US	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: For a long time the main problem I saw about "hijo de putin" was the way he treats the liberal opposition. It is still that way, but unfortunately it looks like either my ex-compatriots are not matuyre enough as a nation to vote for Harward-trained leaders, or there are other problems... I am so scared thet the choice of today is between hijo de putin and monsters like Rogosin. This type of prospective really scares me. You might speculate that Yeltsin was alcoholic, etc., but you have forgotten what a qualitative, not quantitative change occurred during his reign in Russia. Only once I have been prowd of my people, in the year 1991. After that people got scared of what they have done and are still at this state of mind. If the situation will not change, I am not going to vote on the next election during the first round. If I will vote for hijo de putin during the second round it will not be for him, it will be against real monsters like Rogosin, or other representatives of "Rodina" movement, the "Nazis for intellectuals". How sad it is that we are moving in the American direction, at one point like in the US, Russia likely will have two parties, right-of-the-center and extreme right one.
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Mogsfan - Syria and Iran? Terrorist states? I think that the largest and most prominent terrorist state in the world is the United States of America. As a matter of fact if you look at the meaning of the word "terrorism", the United States under Bush pretty much falls into the category. Terrorism- Using terror (fear brought upon people by cruel and violent acts) as means to attain a political objective. I would say an illegal attack upon a sovreign state of Iraq, in the process inciting fear and commiting cruel acts against it's citizens constitutes terrorism. Now the United States is trying to inspite fear in the citizens of another sovreign nation - Iran. Iran and Syria are NOT terrorist states, we are NOT funding terrorism. We are selling Syria weapons that can be used to defend it's sovreignty (Most likely from a terrorist nation, such as the United States). We are aiding Iran in building a Nuclear Power Station, but under the condition that they give up ALL used up Plutonium rods, so this excludes pretty much any chance that they will be made into Nuclear weapons or dirty bombs. ALL U.S. claims that Iran is creating weapons of mass destruction are baseless accusations They have no proof - just like Iraq. The Labeling of ALL MUSLIM NATIONS AS TERRORIST NATIONS is not the best way to go about it. Terrorist does not = muslim. Just for the record, the United States of America has very good relations with a country that has many (proven) direct links to Islamic terrorist organisations, it is Saudi Arabia. Unlike the many baseless accusations of "terrorism" in Iran and Syria. It is there, but the terrorism is coming from the United States. Ironic isn't it? Vic
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: If the people did not like what Putin was doing, they would not have voted for him, and he wouldn't have gotten 74% (give or take a few). Really, even if they had no other options that they knew of, they would have voted "Against All" or any other candidate. Second, there was no "Media Bias" in the elections campaign. The media was obviously mentioning Putin more - Because he was the CURRENT PRESIDENT! If you look at how much they reported about him now and how much they had about him during the elections, it is the same. "The president met with so and so and discussed this and that" For the record - Putin never said that he would not run in 2012. I hope he does. If he continues his current policy, he has my vote. Also, as "e" mentioned, you do not need "U.S. democracy" to have a successfull nation, I do not the press throwing dirt at each other and finding stories that sell. As long as the current situation is improving at a steady rate without any violations of our rights, I am happy. Also, he has not made any promises that he can't keep. He also didn't make any promises that he could not keep in his last term. Maybe the figures of economic growth were A LITTLE BIT OFF, but not by that much. Thank you. Vic
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blaked Lounge Lizard Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 180 Location: Moscow	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:37 pm    Post subject: I like him. That isn't to say that he does everything the way that I would have it done. He is one of the most tactful political leaders that I've ever observed. He is like teflon here - nothing sticks to him - pension reforms, the government's failure to eliminate internal passport controls, eroding regional autonomy - nothing. Everyone always blames his siloviki - his inner circle. Whenever he speaks to the media, he sounds like a rational, principled reformist; a dedicated leader who is firm when dealing with terrorists and an enemy of internal corruption. In light of this, reforms have ground to a halt in his second term. Everyone over 60 hates Edinstvo now because of the utter, complete, abysmal failure of pension reforms. The country is in the clear after it eliminates its foreign debt. Russia has already shown that it can abandon its pensioners, its business leaders, its servicemen, its teachers, its liberal-minded oposition and its religious and ethnic minorities without risking a velvet revolution. If oil prices fall (and they won't unless the CIA kills Chavez or the Chinese economy collapses) the leadership of the country will survive. Last edited by blaked on Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Mogsfan, you supposedly don't like Bush but yet you sound so much like him and expouse his hypocrisy, its not even funny. A European Republican? Quote: Syria? Iran? Ring a bell, e? Now, Putin is involving the Palestinians with weapons? You kinda shot urself in the foot by mentioning Saudi Arabia which is the actually world's largest sponsor of terrorism. But the US buys oil and aids Saudi Arabia who in turns finanaces islamic terror groups. Any sanctions on Saudia Arabia....ever?....Noooooope. Like what Vic says, you, like Bush, are pigeonholing Arab countries as "terrorists" . You mentioned the Palestinian authority by whom your EU also aids. Your EU also hasn't put any of the Palestinian terror groups on its list. What are you talking about? Quote: Putin should be concentrating on bettering Russian society and investing in his own country instead of financing other countries and people with ulterior motives. Again, as I mentioned and as Vic mentioned, how exactly? You seemingly feel so condfident in pointing out bad things and pointing how it can change, elaborate? How can he "invest" in his own country? If the US and the EU can "financing other countries and people with ulterior motives" why can't Russia? Quote: just notice that so many people of other countries are always saying how their politician is different and always contrasting with Bush, for e.g. But, why is he better? Well for starters, Putin actually follows and respects internaional law (for example Putin has ratified the Kyoto Protocol the International Criminal Court and others) while Bush uttertly refuses to. I'm not even going to mention Iraq which was a clear violation of internation law. Putin doesn't ignore and violate his own constitution just to force his "morality" on the people eg: Terry Schaivo, Gay marriage, and etc. Its like what Vic said, what would you expect from a country thats NEVER EVER had free market capitalism and democracy before. lts only been 14 years since the revolution and only 3.5 since Putin has been in power. And as Vic and I mention repeteadly, you don't need free markets or free press to be prosperous (China, Singapore, Malaysia Thailand, Chile, South Africa, just to name a few) and there isn't a country in the world that doesn't restrict and control its media. With a mess like Russia and the CIS, what would you expect him to do. To be too soft and western, they'd eat him alive. With your limited resources, you're talking out of your ass like any dumb American Republican or actually a smug snooty European.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: "e", do you have a reading comprehension problem? I was saying Russia was doing what the U.S. had done. They had business dealings with Saudi Arabia who are home to some of the World's worst terrorists. That is called a contrast and I was saying in general terms, "don't copy the worst guilty parties!" Do you seriously think Syria/Iran are that innocent? I am not making judgements yet but why sell them arms etc.? At least, Syria, is liable to help in any effort against another country and Iran, some say, have no qualm with actions against the U.S. as they have a rather fundamentalist element as well. I have already posted several times of the Bush administration's terrorist-like and criminal actions. It doesn't mean I can't be critical of someone else, too. Stop looking at things black and white so you might have a clue. I was merely stating that I think Russia should stay neutral and finance their investments in other ways. Vic, you are too dense to even reply to.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Quote: And as Vic and I mention repeteadly, you don't need free markets or free press to be prosperous (China, Singapore, Malaysia Thailand, Chile, South Africa, just to name a few) and there isn't a country in the world that doesn't restrict and control its media. It's funny you name all those countries. Many of those, are dying to get out of their country. There is a huge population in poverty. Anyways, I don't know what all that has to do with my points anyway. You and Vic are taking it on a tangent. I made a point that I found things I dislike about Putin. He is two-faced as you now know from his numerous comments about "democracy" and those related speeches. Now, he is sticking his nose in the Middle-East trade of weapons mess. He "will be eaten alive" if he doesn't do what? That is utter nonsense. He is behaving like Bush.
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