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DavidC
Frequent Guest
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 39
Location: New York
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 Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: Why? |
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| This might sound like a naive question. But why would men travel 5000 miles from America to Ukraine or Russia for a sex tour? Aren't there enough prostitutes in their own home town? |
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vorteks
VIP
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 571
Location: European Union
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Easy enough :
Prostitution is not legal everywhere is the US. Sex addicts are even penalised and hunted, police officers disguised like hookers offer their services and fine/jail them. Some customers are even getting publicised in local newspapers, like they were dangerous offenders.
In states where prostitution is legal (Nevada for example) services are very expensive ($500 and upwards) .
In an extremely competitive environment where individualism has led to a virtual war between sexes and constant sentimental instability (half of marriages end up to a divorce), there are very few oportunities for males to experience sexual satisfaction. They also don t have much free time (2 weeks a year) and some seek maximum sexual compensation over that short time.
A prostitute that has similar education and cultural codes percieves you much more profundly and doesnt look very exotic. Exotism is powerful sexual stimulant.
The top models advertising propaganda idealised young barby doll like slim lolitas and paradoxically with modern stressing life and hispanisation (americanisation) of the country, fewer and fewer girls fit those ideals. In eastern europe, barby dolls abound.
In merchandising terms, quality/price ratio is what drives dollars and euros to the slav sex market. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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The law is also poorly enforced there. You can bribe and forge your documents your way around easily in Ukraine and Russia.
BTW the majority of sex touritsts are phedophiles who take advantage of the lax law enforcement to go after teenage girls and boys.
Not to mention it is dirt cheap to fly out there and stay in a hotel. From the UK to Eastern Europe for example:
www.ryanair.com
www.easyjet.com
You can go and come back on a weekend and spend less on everything that you would for a night with a hooker in Europe or America.
It isn't just Eastern Europe either. That place is actually new to it. Its been happening in SE Asia for years. |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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I don't doubt that this article has some truth to it. Just looking at the internet and seeing how many American and other foreign men go shopping for Russian and Ukrainian brides says alot. Young Ukrainian women can see these men as opportunities. Can't say I blame them. We all want nice comfy lives don't we in spite of naivety.
The fact that AIDS is a big public healtgh concern alone should get the Ukrainian goverment's attention to propose stronger laws but we all know that money is often more valued sadly than the health and welfare of its people.
Yes it is appalling that foreign men will go to ANY COUNTRY even their own, and act indecently. And those on so called vacations or scouting for brides, probably are far more loose and disrectful with women. Their attitude for example is similar to Winstons, i.e. I have spent this much money and have come so far, I am entitled..,.,
I don't think this problem has that much to do with visas etc. And btw E, you have ridiculed me for saying that I don't have a big problem with prostitution, yet in this post you seem to advocate for legalization. Maybe we do have something in common after all.
As far as dressing goes, Vic you are naive. Skimpy, sexy dressing on young women playing this f...ed up game does send sexual inviting signals. They might look and dress well for your perspective, think about men, especially losers. They are biting at the chump. And I dare say it doesn't take that much to get them to bite because these guys are desperate. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:15 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the majority of men going for their "tours" are going to visit prostitutes. I suppose those who fail might but.... Nah, they have the idea they can get YOUNGER or younger-looking women and you can't deny the idea of a 'foreign woman' being intriguing for some guys.
Then, you can add on all the stereotypes, the promoted theories which are also exploited by the marriage agencies alike and the media. One example of the media is a shot of Moscow when Russia is a topic. Each time a camera shows an area of Moscow, you often see some attractive women walking down the street.
I've already posted my perceptions about all this and suggested some theories. Anyway, perhaps, you can't generalize but you can always find someone who asserts the contrary. Ohhhhh vellllll... |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Cyndy, no offense, but don't you think it's somewhat of a hypocracy to justify or overlook women latching on the foreign men for a so-called better life and then villify men who go to Russia for the purpose of finding a wife? I don't think one can have it both ways. It takes two to tango. I know some people will say how bad it is is Russia. Well, then, I am not sure that "prostituting yourself" is the answer. I try to see it from their point of view but I'm sorry, it just seems so superficial and pointless to me. If some rich Russian oligarch decided he wanted the girl, she would just as well take him, then, right? So, the issue is not that he's a rich American but that he's rich and choosing her, period.
I have read, however, that there is a cultural difference regarding morals, attitudes and behaviors. But, no one brought that up. So, I am assuming we are talking about selfish foreigners going to Russia with ulterior motives seeking a "wife."
Note, I'm just commenting, not claiming to be an authority.
I am well aware of the other side: of men of any nationality exploiting and using the girls. I cannot speak of them without showing contempt. But, i have no suggestions of what the Russian government should do regarding them and I have no knowledge of what the government's policy is either. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't doubt that this article has some truth to it. Just looking at the internet and seeing how many American and other foreign men go shopping for Russian and Ukrainian brides says alot. Young Ukrainian women can see these men as opportunities. Can't say I blame them. We all want nice comfy lives don't we in spite of naivety. |
Mogs is right. This "opportunity" is really exploitation by both parties. There really is no excuse or reason that would justify a woman using a foreign man for a green card/wealth. There is no excuse for"Prostetuting yourself". If you want to come to the west, the women should do it legitimately and honestly like normal immigrants should do. My girlfriend and other Russian/foreign women I know are outright disgusted by it both ways. Even the ones on this site that Dimitry interviewed in the "what is Russia" section.
| Quote: | | I don't think this problem has that much to do with visas etc. And btw E, you have ridiculed me for saying that I don't have a big problem with prostitution, yet in this post you seem to advocate for legalization. Maybe we do have something in common after all. |
I don't support prostituion at all. I only advocate legalizing it in Ukraine/Russia's case so that it could be brought under control in vein with similar cases in Las Vegas, Amsterdam Thailand and the Philippines. Once it is under control, it should be limited, like how it is in Amsterdam.
| Quote: | | As far as dressing goes, Vic you are naive. Skimpy, sexy dressing on young women playing this f...ed up game does send sexual inviting signals. They might look and dress well for your perspective, think about men, especially losers. They are biting at the chump. And I dare say it doesn't take that much to get them to bite because these guys are desperate. |
Thats just a matter of personal perception. Nearly all of the women I know including my girlfriend dress skimplily and sexily, but don't act slutty. They know how to control themselves and their sexual sginals and let up their guard. Any woman with a brain can do that. and that frustrates losers like Winston. Getting past that to guys thats what having "game" is all about.  Thats why these men, and men in general try to get them drunk or drugged up. Winston did that all of the time. I'm pretty sure nearly all of sex between these men and women could qualify as date rape.
I remember when I was in Prague I was crammed on the plane and in bars with sex-tourists from Britain who actually had "battle plans" to get laid with local girls. Their first strategy was to get them drunk with cheap local beer or get them lit by smoking lots of pot.
| Quote: | | I am well aware of the other side: of men of any nationality exploiting and using the girls. I cannot speak of them without showing contempt. But, i have no suggestions of what the Russian government should do regarding them and I have no knowledge of what the government's policy is either. |
You saw what I posted reflected what the Ukrainian government wants to do...nothing. Their logic is like "weeeeellll we would like to stop it...buttttt......we'd lose money and destroy our fledgling tourist industry so we'll condone it." I'm sure Russia is similar as well.
| Quote: | | Note, I'm just commenting, not claiming to be an authority. |
You shouldn't excuse yourself. You might just be that authority based on what you know. If they don't want to accept what you have to say, then thats their loss and they shouldn't have asked the question.  |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Mogs,
I tend to agree that the majority of foreign men who go to Russia, Ukraine or other countries in specific pursuit of finding a bride are probably not primarily motivated by getting laid while in that country. That's a bonus isn't it. BTW, while I don't agree with all of your opinions and thoughts here, you appear to me anyways as perhaps the most honest, genuine and compassionate person on WTR that I have seen. I however am not quite sure what your personalo interest is here re Russia. Care to elaborate? |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | BTW, while I don't agree with all of your opinions and thoughts here, you appear to me anyways as perhaps the most honest, genuine and compassionate person on WTR that I have seen. I however am not quite sure what your personalo interest is here re Russia. Care to elaborate? |
Thanks for the compliment, Cyndy, but you are being too generous. Perhaps, I am too pragmatic or easygoing? I don't know. But, I have my own biases like anyone else but I try to be open-minded but I'm also cynical etc. so it comes out sounding negative often enough. Anyway, enough of that.
I guess my initial interest in Russia provoking joining a forum and/or learning more is from my Russian political science course I took some years ago. Also, I am naturally interested in other countries but I'm also a hockey fan. So, you would eventually hear how players from other countries perceived their native country. Russia is also very interesting from a global, historical and political viewpoint. The language also sounds really cool when spoken!
Regarding the main topic of discussion:
I also want to make clear, that I am also not demonizing prostitutes. There are all kinds of people out there. I do have a theory that a lot of prostitutes are not good people. However, I also feel that a lot of the girls have personal and psychological issues. Lack of self-esteem, poverty, experiences of physical and sexual violence and other problems (such as mental and psychological abuse) could play a part in them turning to prostitution. Some people's instinct for survival or whatever you want to call it, sometimes overrides other principles, values and ethics. In addition, sometimes some people turn to it rather than continue to pursue other options.
| Quote: | | You saw what I posted reflected what the Ukrainian government wants to do...nothing. Their logic is like "weeeeellll we would like to stop it...buttttt......we'd lose money and destroy our fledgling tourist industry so we'll condone it." I'm sure Russia is similar as well. |
I agree. I would suspect it is tolerated for the most part. Does the government really want to invest the time and money to combat that problem? Probably not. I suppose that is why the government turns their back. However, it is probably difficult to justify legalizing it. It's mostly an economic advantage, I think. But, the social consequences could be serious. Not to mention possible health consequences (which carries a health cost). If it's publicly or officially tolerated, it could be implied (according to the "prostitutes") that the government doesn't find their plight important. Even though, they probably want the right to "service themselves." Does that make sense?!?
I suppose Amsterdam, some cities in Germany and other places which have "red-light districts" get around the legalization issue somehow. I am not sure what the update is (regarding how this policy is working). The mentality is, if you can't stop it, regulate it. It's almost the same philosophy as legalizing drugs.
I am usually not one to support government policies that restricts rights. The government might save money and reduce organized crime when access is more liberal and not "illegal" but that doesn't necessarily mean the overall problems will be reduced. |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Mogs,
You really should not be so harsh to condone prostitues or think they are bad people. What about the men who seek them out? And pimps etc.? Perhaps you are right and I was too generous in my compliments to you re your nature. While I do not necessarily think that prostituition is right, I am a realist. There will always be a market for this and right or wrong- this trade will be pounced on by a variety of both unfortunates as well as scammers |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| I am going to be posting less (a lot less) from now on. I just thought I'd answer this, though. Cyndy, I don't know if they are bad per se but what I meant, they become more indifferent, less caring and lose a lot of themselves, I think. I think it just happens for them to do what they do. Is one not cold-hearted (and have to feel indifferent) to provide sexual services for money? Obviously, the pimps, the organized crime syndicates and customers (although, some might just give in to hormones, having a mid-life crisis or have a lack of companionship) are cold-hearted and uncaring to utilize them as a money-making commodity. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I suppose Amsterdam, some cities in Germany and other places which have "red-light districts" get around the legalization issue somehow. I am not sure what the update is (regarding how this policy is working). The mentality is, if you can't stop it, regulate it. It's almost the same philosophy as legalizing drugs. |
It is legal in Amsterdam. In fact prostitution there is considered a legitimate taxable job. In fact theres prostitution unions there. But its wierd there. There are no pimps. The sex must only be done in her (or his) apartment or place of business and she advertises through her window. She has to clock in and report her hours like a normal worker does. There's something similar going in Bangkok, but its not outright legal as it is in Amsterdam.
| Quote: | | Is one not cold-hearted (and have to feel indifferent) to provide sexual services for money? Obviously, the pimps, the organized crime syndicates and customers (although, some might just give in to hormones, having a mid-life crisis or have a lack of companionship) are cold-hearted and uncaring to utilize them as a money-making commodity |
As long as women continue to be seen as nothing but sex objects, and some women accepting that fact or using it to their advantage, there will continue to be a market for prostitution, strippers, pornography, etc.
 [/quote] |
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vorteks
VIP
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 571
Location: European Union
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="e"] | Quote: | | There are no pimps. |
I wouldn t be so sure. There are networks that bring all those girls from eastern europe, south america or asia to those windows in Amsterdam.
The most successful legalisation system comes from Australia, at least the states that legalised it (Western Australia, Queensland, Victoria...). Sex workers as they call themselves are unionised, and, contrarely to Amsterdam, they don t need to display themselves in windows, they work in brothels. Unlike USA, there is no bigottish condemnation or penalisation of customers, this is regarded as a normal leisure activity. Girls are sound (regular health check), often educated, states get a revenue out of the activity, brothels are not sordid, they are often beautifully decorated, some offer shares on the stock market and advertise in the center of the towns.Why does it work so well in Australia? May be due to the countries history, first british settlers being convicts and prostitutes...
PS : there are even married men with children there offering sexual services for women with full agreement of their wife  |
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sputnik
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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prostitution was legalised several years ago in holland. it was thought it would increase the state's control over the sector. there were many illegal and also underage protitutes behind the windows.
inititally the legalisation caused more problems than it solved: much of the illegal protitution moved to the underground and the windows in red light districts fell empty. prostitutes had problems acquiring bank accounts, insurance etc.
it seems to be going better now, but there is still a large underground prostitution scene next to the legalised one. it is there that most of the victim's of trade in women end up. not behind the windows. |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Prostitution is a complex issue. We all know that. Since it exists and will continue to exist, right or wrong, why not legalize it as such they did in Australia where these working prostitutes have protection, they get tezsted for STD, can earn income independently of pimps and pay taxes.
I btw am not suggesting that young girls and women who become prostitutes are saints or don't have ulterior motives with for example foreign men with money. Everyone bears some degree of responsibility for their actions. |
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