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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: Russia's lack of social values |
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I read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4125072.stm
I think that Russia needs priorities and that the government is showing a definite lack of concern and care for their people. I still remember a quote by Putin: "Russia is not a charity case." Obviously, Russia is failing at improving their society.
The source of the article is the BBC and I have yet to read anyone dispel that source. Most of the blogs, professors and other political analysts have been criticized by the Putin-obsessed and nationalists so perhaps, they can try to excuse that source some way. 
Anyway, the interesting tidbit is that it can't be entirely blamed on the collapse of the Soviet Union:
"But many western demographers say there is no specifically Russian phenomenon, just a continuation of trends that began in the country in the 1960s.."
Obviously, communism didn't stop this trend so you can't assert that concern was there during those regimes.
As far as I know, Russia doesn't have a real social welfare system in place and no concrete economic plans except for "crazy capitalism" in which money/profit is the almighty (they are taking the wrong lessons from American style capitalism) pursuit. Doctors aren't valued. They're poorly paid. Psychiatrists/Psychologists? What are they paid? Is there a lot of daycare centers in Russia? Homes for the elderly?
If they want to reverse the trend, they need a new government and new political ideals from new (modern) political idealists. So far, it seems most Russian political parties go from bad to worse (United Russia, Rodina, Liberal Democrats etc.).
Good day. |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Could you be anymore insulting Mogsfan. 
And if you actually read that article, the population dip has nothing to do with "social vlaues" at all.
| Quote: | | These headline grabbing facts appear to reflect complicated, longer-term trends. |
| Quote: | | But many western demographers say there is no specifically Russian phenomenon, just a continuation of trends that began in the country in the 1960s. |
Last edited by e on Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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What a load of BS. From a 'Russian Analyst' that is.
All these things take money and time to build. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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What is BS?
How much time? Time for what? Are you saying there are no homeless in Russia or those who need medical care? How long do they have to wait?
| mediashark wrote: | What a load of BS. From a 'Russian Analyst' that is.
All these things take money and time to build. |
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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This article is only reiterating a known fact - the birth rate is low in Russia. Medical services are very poor, especially outside of large cities. State medicine is often failing. Many "regular" people cannot obtain the medicine they need to survive. The quality of food and air are low in most places. When people go to Moscow, they see the bright side of Russia - the wealth, the restaurants, the casinos, but most people still live poorly and the quality of medical and other social services is still rather low.
It will takes years for the country to set up social institutions common in the west. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mogsfan wrote: | What is BS?
Are you saying there are no homeless in Russia or those who need medical care? How long do they have to wait?
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Not as long as they do in Canada, thats for sure  (wait for medical care, that is) |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Russia's underpopulation has nothing to do with its "social values" or it being poor or a corrupt government as its really more to do with a recent global trend known as underpopulation and a scientific concept known as sub-replacement fertility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility
| Quote: | Sub-replacement fertility is a fertility rate that is not high enough to replace an area's population. Sub-replacement fertility is below approximately 2.1 children per woman's life time. (Note: 2.1 children per woman includes 2 children to replace the parents, with one-tenth of a child extra to make up for the mortality of children and of women who do not reach the end of their reproductive years.)
Today about half the world lives in nations with sub-replacement fertility. All the nations in East Asia, with the exceptions: Mongolia, the Philippines, and Laos are below. Russia and Eastern Europe are in most cases quite dramatically below replacement fertility. Western Europe also is below replacement. In the Middle East Iran, Tunisia, Algeria, Turkey, and Lebanon are below replacement. Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are similar to Western Europe, while the United States is just barely below replacement with about 2.0 births per woman. All four of these nations still have growing populations due to high rates of immigration. The countries having the lowest fertility are Hong Kong, Macao, Singapore and Lithuania. |
And again under the article: "underpopulation":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpopulation
| Quote: | | It is widely believed that there will be an underpopulation crisis in Japan by 2014, which is unsolvable except by massive immigration. It is also believed that there could be the same crisis in Western Europe; however, immigration there may help to offset the crisis. Problems could arise in Eastern Europe and Russia too, where the natality fell abruptly after the end of Communism. Underpopulation is also believed to be the root cause of the possible future failure of the United States Social Security system, but, until now, the constant flow of immigrants delayed the problem. |
So, Russia is just reflecting trends happening worldwide. And as above article stated, it has to do with mass emmigration, little immigration, the mass use of contraceptives and abortions which are no longer a social taboo as they used to be, and the rise of Feminist values: the upward mobility of women, and so on.
From that same wikipedia article:
| Quote: | The Bureau attributes the dropping growth rate to two major phenomena – the AIDS epidemic and declining fertility rates, including increased contraceptive use. "In 1990 the world's women, on average, were giving birth to 3.3 children over their lifetimes," said the Census Bureau. "By 2002 the average was 2.6 – less than one-half of a child more than the level needed to assure the replacement of the population."
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And from this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/734123.stm
| Quote: | The UN says lifestyle changes, such as having children later and greater numbers of women going into further education, have also had an impact.
The report proposes that governments respond by introducing financial and tax benefits to those with children.
"Although expensive, these policies can be successful and are not incompatible with a market economy - but they do require lots of political will," according to the report.
However, the UN is pessimistic about the possibilities of reversing the trend. |
Mr Spices argument is inadequate because underpopulation and low birth rates are more rapid in super-wealthy first world countries such as Japan and Western Europe. So a well-functioning government, or a social welfare system is irrelevant to the previously made points that you have radical changes in humanity happening.
This is the official UN report: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/pop850.doc.htm |
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Only
Frequent Guest
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:19 am Post subject: |
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A little discussed fact: during the course of twentieth century, with all its devastating wars, etc, population of the Earth managed to quadruple. Mainly due to advances in agriculture and invention of antibiotics.
Another little fact: 9 out of ten children born today are born in third and fourth world countries.
And another one: fertility rate in Afganistan is 6.75 children/woman. An average age of Afgani is about 17 y/o.
Somehow I don't think that low birth rates in western countries are the main problem...
Couldn't find much statistics on whole of Russia, but in Moscow, where the deficit of federally funded daycare centers is at all time high due mainly to restructuring of city planning in development (city centre gearing more and more towards business, not residential real estate and areas farther from it experiencing an unparalleled boom in residential development), only 60% of children would be able to go to government funded daycare. For which, I might add, their parents pay a total of $6 (!) per month. AS OPPOSED TO $600 I WAS PAYING IN NY, SUCKER THAT I WAS.
...Sorry for caps - couldn't help it. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Everyone knows that the fertility rates are high in the third world countries. They don't have developed birth control and there is no family planning. A lot of westerners have gone to African countries to help out with this and with the Aids epidemic there.
Geez, I was just using the original source (BBC) to illustrate what is happening right now and it was more of speculation that the Russian government lacks good priorities like every other country. I wondered about any kind of a safety net etc. I read just today that Russia is planning on giving more funding to the military after another article about the humiliation and bullying of new or recent recruits in the Russian army. It sounds like such a mess. What do YOU think is more important? Increasing funding for the military or finding a way to solve the (bullying etc.) problem and having more funding for social problems? I wish I could find a Russian buddy of mine who I talked to on another site. The last I heard he was working in the Army. I wonder what is happening with him....
I also getting tired of any post I present getting attacked by some posters who will remain nameless. I basically don't reply to them anymore.
Only, how come only 60% can go? Are they understaffed or the centers aren't large enough to accomodate them? Six bucks? Even that shouldn't be too much for the average family or no? Just curious.
I'm losing interest in this forum. Perhaps, I'll leave again and dedicate the time to improving my Russian. A few girls are helping me.
Poka |
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e
VIP
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A little discussed fact: during the course of twentieth century, with all its devastating wars, etc, population of the Earth managed to quadruple. Mainly due to advances in agriculture and invention of antibiotics. |
That ties into this saying: Before the 20th century, Nature controlled man After the the 20th century, Man controls nature.
Not saying that third world birth rates aren't low but correcting Mogs rather faulty "logic" that poverty and corruption and "social values" (whatever that means) are whats causing Russias pop dip when its happening across the first and second world.
Everyone emmigrating from Russia, condoms, Birth Control pills, that most Russian women no longer desire to be baby making housewives anymore, and that people there would rather be D.I.N.K.S (Double Income No Kids) these days have somewhat to do with it. |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| e--I think you forget the fact is that some people feel that they simply can't afford to support any kids as they already have trouble supporting themselves. I think that seems to be the case too. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| e wrote: | | Everyone emmigrating from Russia, condoms, Birth Control pills, that most Russian women no longer desire to be baby making housewives anymore, and that people there would rather be D.I.N.K.S (Double Income No Kids) these days have somewhat to do with it. |
One little correction - the migration rate in the Russian Federation is a +, albeit a small one. (Meaning that there are more IMMIGRANTS than EMMIGRANTS) Unlike what many others think - I believe that this is a good thing for the economy but in some cases it can be a bad thing aswell. The good - you have them do work that no Russians want (street cleaner, loading and other manual labour that does not require qualifications) Now, the problem with this is that people with qualifications that want more will not get the job. As Valentina Matvienko (governor of St.Petersburg) said, "What is cheaper for a company to dig a trench for a cable? 10 Tajiks or one tractor and a specialist to operate it?" We all know that option #1 is the cheaper one.
But, migration or population has little to do with anything here. This is what happens when you go from Socialist to Capitalist overnight without thinking anything through like the Chineese. Corruption is the main problem that has to be taken care of now.
Vic |
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traceymill
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 84
Location: chicago il
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:19 am Post subject: |
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if there is such a thing as a low birth rate then how do you account for the at least 500,000 orphans at the present time? There are baby orphanages all over the Russian Federation as well as the reglular orphanages that have kids 2-16. The problem is reaching epedemic proportions and people are worried about low birth rates??? How about putting a social system in place that takes care of the adults so that they can take care of their families. It is going to take alot of time and patience, it took years for things to get the way they are, the same goes for change now.
It's like the old saying "It took nine months to put the weight on and it's going to take at least nine months to get it off!"
I know this sounds oversimplified and perhaps a bit off the topic, but I do feel there is a direct correlation between the two. any thoughts????? |
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Intourist
Talk Show Host
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 245
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| traceymill wrote: | | if there is such a thing as a low birth rate then how do you account for the at least 500,000 orphans at the present time? |
Tracey, any sociologist will tell you that the two are not mutually exclusive of each other. That Russia has a low birth rate is generally documented and accepted fact.
That there exists a problem with the high-number of orphans is more indicative of socio-economic problems that potential parents face in raising a child here. It's an expensive prospect for the rest of the largely agrarian and under-developed provinces that forces many, against their will, I'm sure, to give up their children.
Another important factor to keep in mind is birth control. A large number of the orphanages residents are unwanted. Until recently, and perhaps still so in poorer regions, methods of birth control were sorely lacking.
In any case, I don't see any contradiction in the large number of orphanages and a low birth rate. |
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traceymill
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 84
Location: chicago il
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| point taken, tho I do think that the low birth rate is a sympton of a much larger social problem which has already been brought up, and I agree with you completely. |
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