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Chechnya Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Polls

Should Chechnya: Remain part of the Federation?  58%  [ 18 ] Become Independent?  41%  [ 13 ] Total Votes : 31
Author	Message
e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:12 am    Post subject: Chechnya Here you go Casey!.... Anyways: your views on Chechnya: should it remain part of the Federation, or should it be let go and become independent? What are your views on how the situation should be handled?
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Intourist Talk Show Host Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 245 Location: Moscow	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: It's not an independence 'thing'. Chechnya represents one or Russia's largest Caspian Sea bordering provinces, and as such is a major transit throughway for oil (something I'm sure hasn't escaped the separatists/terrorists/rebels attention). It ain't about to happen anytime soon.
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Camrade VIP Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 516 Location: Санкт-Петербург	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Chechnya is a part of Russia and there's no 'independance' ways of it's future.
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vorteks VIP Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 571 Location: European Union	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:46 pm    Post subject: To find out if Chechnya should be independant, you need to define, once again, what a russian is. If this is a white orthodox with european roots, then there is no coherence in a russian Chechnya. If it is the people s will, i fear the russian Chechnya wouldnt survive a referundum. If this is a colonial logic, then why accepting Bielorussian and Ukraine independance while refusing it to Chechnians, that have far less in common with russians... Please point out the coherence in a russian Chechnya.
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mister_wizzz VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: You are absolutely right. I asked somedays ago how Russians considered Marat Safin (who is Tatar... for people who don't know) and Camrade said RUSSIAN. Now it would be interesting to get his answer if Marat Safin would have been Chechen ?
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject: I think that would've depended on whose side he was on. No one in their right mind would consider Shamil Basayev "Russian," but who's to say that Alu Alkhanov isn't? I don't know if he is or isn't, I'm just presenting an argument from a certain point of view. I cast my vote for retention for reasons mentioned in the other thread. Vic laid out a convincing argument for why not only should Chechnya remain part of the Federation, but that progress was indeed being made against the fundamentalists and terrorists and that the war is coming closer to an end. The main thing with the Wahabists, whether you are pro- or anti-Moscow on this issue, is that we really are dealing with folks disconnected from reality. Their practices are way off what the Quran teaches, they thoroughly enjoy the torture and murder of innocents, and everything is "shaheed" or "insh'allah" with them. Ever wonder why these people start screaming "Allahu akbar!" every time a suicide bomber explodes or a car bomb rips through a crowded market? So have I. What makes "God is great" an appropriate phrase to use when commenting on someone committing suicide to kill innocent civilians?
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mister_wizzz VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:07 pm    Post subject: init6 wrote: I think that would've depended on whose side he was on. No one in their right mind would consider Shamil Basayev "Russian," but who's to say that Alu Alkhanov isn't? I don't know if he is or isn't, I'm just presenting an argument from a certain point of view. You are right, you don't know, better let native russians answer the question. init6 wrote: I cast my vote for retention for reasons mentioned in the other thread. Vic laid out a convincing argument for why not only should Chechnya remain part of the Federation, but that progress was indeed being made against the fundamentalists and terrorists and that the war is coming closer to an end. Chechnya a part of Russia, well why not, but in that case Russians should be fair towards Chechen people. I mean giving them autonomy and elect a real representative not a Kremlin puppet (I had already talked about this with VIC). About Fundamentalists... it is not a religion war, most of Chechen are not Wahabit, it is a colonial war. They simply fight against oppression, why waiting for a certain death if you are a young male Chechen ? Better fight and be killed in action. That s exactly the Russians did against the Nazi in WWII. You say Bassayev is a disgusting bastard, of course he is ! But when he cross a Chechen on his road whom her wife has been raped and killed by Russians, do you really think Bassayev has to shake the Religion flag to recruit him ? Of course not, this guy will have only one thing in his mind : vengeance and with BAssayev or another, no importance. init6 wrote: The main thing with the Wahabists, whether you are pro- or anti-Moscow on this issue, is that we really are dealing with folks disconnected from reality. Their practices are way off what the Quran teaches, they thoroughly enjoy the torture and murder of innocents, and everything is "shaheed" or "insh'allah" with them. Ever wonder why these people start screaming "Allahu akbar!" every time a suicide bomber explodes or a car bomb rips through a crowded market? So have I. What makes "God is great" an appropriate phrase to use when commenting on someone committing suicide to kill innocent civilians? Well this is another debate, the only thing I know is that all human bombs are desperate people who can easily be brainwashed. And why they are desparate ? Vettra gave a link who could give a start of explaination : http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/grozny.htm
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Camrade VIP Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 516 Location: Санкт-Петербург	Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject: 2mister_wizzz I need to say that ethnically i am tatar as well as Marat Safin (btw, Sharapova is also tatar surname) but I consider myself russian cause I have same mentality and same language... If Marat were chechen I would have said that he's russian also... cause Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation as well as Republic of Tatarstan.
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init6 WayToRussified Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 363 Location: Москва, Россия	Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Wizz, I have seen that photo essay many times before, and I found it rather telling and touching. Grozny certainly fits its name these days, no? But I also think you missed the points I was trying to make above. I'm not defending the actions of the Russian forces there, least of all the human rights abuses. But what is your solution? Just saying, "Well, Russia has done some bad things in Chechnya," and then pull out all military forces and grant them autonomous status? What is that going to solve? I don't ask rhetorically, I ask for your honest opinion. Because I truly believe that Basayev will keep fighting until he is dead - so I say, the sooner the better!
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wavetossed WayToRussified Joined: 27 Jun 2004 Posts: 339	Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:46 pm    Post subject: The republic of Chechnya signed the articles of the Russian Federation back in 1991 and therefore it is a part of Russia. Chechnya is relatively peaceful right now and there is a major rock festival planned for Grozny next month where some of Russia's leading bands will be playing. There are more terrorist incidents and battles between police and rebels in the neighboring republic of Dagestan than there are in Chechnya. The Chechens are not the only group of Caucasian people who are caught up in ethnic feuding. For centuries Russia has been a multi-ethnic country in which Slavs, Turks, Finns, Mongols, Caucasians, Koreans, and others have lived and worked together. Over that time there has been relatively less warfare than in western Europe. The Russian Federation is a modern democratic country that follows principles which are broadly similar to the principles which underly the European Union. It is inconceivable that Russia would allow a part of the Federation to secede and create an isolationist Burmese style state. Chechnya is not economically viable as an independent state. The modern world does not have room for small independent states. The trend is for countries to form regional federations and live in peace with thier neighbors. The Soviet Union was the first part of the world to implement this model and much of it remains in the Russian Federation and the Commonwealth of Independent States. The EU is the second such group. Then there is NAFTA in North America, ASEAN in Asia-Pac and the union between Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina in South America.
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overseas_expat VIP Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 741 Location: Moscow	Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Well said, wave tossed. I'm not sure I agree completely with all of you points but largely on target. What future would Chechnya have on its own? A teensy little territory without any reals means of long term economic viability. Maybe the people think that they'd be happier with their own little tribal territorial self-rule, but one look at the chaos in Africa over the last 40 years of decolonialism, and it's easy to see how that might well be disasterous. I still wonder what the future will bring to the teensy little nations that are now the former Yugoslavia. No bigger than the average American county, how can they survive? Bosnia-Hertzagovnia, Croatia, Serbia and a couple of others so obscure I can't remember their names....I can't think that they will find long term success as independant nations. What do they have to build an economy on? Fruit? Fishing? In the 21st century? That's probably not a plan that's gonna work. The Balkans have been a tribal problem for centuries and will probably continue to remain so. Are they stubborn, or what?
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Vic Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Moscow, Russian Federation	Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Intourist wrote: It's not an independence 'thing'. Chechnya represents one or Russia's largest Caspian Sea bordering provinces, and as such is a major transit throughway for oil (something I'm sure hasn't escaped the separatists/terrorists/rebels attention). It ain't about to happen anytime soon. You are right about the last part...but for future reference - Absolutely NO part of the Chechen Republic is located on the Caspain sea It borders: Stavropolsky Krai, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Georgia and Karachaevo-Cherkessia (or Kabardino-Balkaria) Vic
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Quote: The modern world does not have room for small independent states. The trend is for countries to form regional federations and live in peace with thier neighbors. I dont think so. Since around the end of the cold war, separatist movements have been on the increase or have intensified. Basque, Kashmir, Palestine, Kosovo, Ossetia, & Dagestan, East Timor, Southern Sudan, Sri Lanka, and countless others. And I don't think the Soviet Union was a federation or rather an amalgamation of states and regions that it forcibily conquered and colonized during the Czars. BTW, NAFTA, ASEAN, the EU and etc aren't federations but trade blocs, political and monetary unions and/or etc but not federations. Quote: I still wonder what the future will bring to the teensy little nations that are now the former Yugoslavia. No bigger than the average American county, how can they survive? Bosnia-Hertzagovnia, Croatia, Serbia The Balkans have been performing extremeley well since the end of the war. Croatia & Bonsia are now a tourist hot spot and is doing so well that they are being considered for EU membership. As for Chechnya: Intourist has made the only really correct observation here. It has nothing to do with race and culture like Vorteks and whizz mentioned either. Its really: oil . Chechnya is sitting on, as well as it is near, one of the worlds largest oil reserves. Before the war, Cechnya was one of the richest areas of the Caucasus because of the oil. Russia wants it back. The separitsts see the oil as the only way the place will be economically viable. As Intourist mentioned, this hasn't escaped the notice of Russia and the separtists. PBS has a really nice section dedicated to Chechnya: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/chechnya/narrative1.html Much more informative than Vettra's link.
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sputnik Lounge Lizard Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 141	Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:15 am    Post subject: e wrote: Before the war, Cechnya was one of the richest areas of the Caucasus because of the oil. Are you sure? Being rich in natural resources can be pretty meaningless in this world. Some african countries, like Congo, should have it all... Oil, gold, diamonds, uranium... it never got them anywhere... Mountainous strategic areas like the Kaukasus, but also Balkan, are more known for their long and sad histories of conflicts, than for their prosperity.
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e VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654	Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:50 am    Post subject: Quote: Are you sure? Being rich in natural resources can be pretty meaningless in this world. Some african countries, like Congo, should have it all... Oil, gold, diamonds, uranium... it never got them anywhere... Africa got nowhere because of crooked leadership that took all of the oil, gold, diamonds, uranium, etc profits for themselves. Not to mention the west that supported these leaders. Hitler lost the war over Caucasus oil and next door Azerbaijan and Georgia (to an extent) have been prospering off of oil. As Intourist mentioned, this hasn't been lost over Russia and the Chechen separatists. As Vorteks mentioned, why didn't they just let it go if the place is that misreable and resource poor like Ukraine, Belarus and etc?
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