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Mogsfan · WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490

In traditional communist governments, there is no voting. lol And you are criticizing vote rigging?!? LOL

I agree with Casey regarding the Republicans and Democrats.

Next point. I don't want to get in a bitter argument regarding WW2 but let's face it, not enough is attributed to the blunders of the Germans during the later stages of the war. Germans were pawns and set off for inevitable failures. The march to Moscow during the period approaching Winter was one of the most severe gaffes ever made in WW2 (you could include the Battle of Stalingrad, the pride and miscues during that battle as well). I don't know why, but, no one ever brings up that point anymore. Dictators usually don't care about their people and this includes soliders. They care even less about their soldiers' welfare than even democratic leaders.

Capitalism is not unique in its exploitation and neglect of the people. It's just under a different market system, that's all. Democracy doesn't work because people are naturally selfish and have little empathy for others. (Not to mention, most politicians are scum but that is a different albeit related topic altogether). The indifference of the corporate world and the all-dominating drive for higher profits, lower costs and willingness to exploit workers by paying the lowest wages is not any different than the Communist world you might have in the Soviet Union or Cuba. Just apply it to a State-run government and use the analogy that the State is the corporation and sets the rules.

The interesting dynamics can be seen in Social Democracies in which those countries and governments try to balance the two systems. At least, they are trying. The problem is that the people don't (necessarily) change in attitudes and behaviors.

The comments on North Korea made by you two are just too insane to reply to so I won't bother straightening you out. It's futile. Wink

renwan · Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 204

what the fuck are you talking about, there is no government in communism....government exists only in socialism and is more democratic...as i explained many times its former by popular assemblies who are ELECTED BY POPULAR VOTE,the assembly chooses a president and his cabinet and then the population VOTES FOR OR AGAINST the candidates choosen.

YOU DONT HAVE THAT CHOICE IN THE US.

and people are not nautrally selfish,dont bring me that bullshit,people cant be defined nor grouped as anything,each person is a world.

Paul-Holmes · Lounge Wizard Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 1073

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

renwan: You can continue fooling yourself and repeat 20-yr old propaganda. I had lived in the Soviet Union, remember those "socialistic" times when you went to the elections, check a mark against one and only candidate and went home. I remember socialist farms that were dirty and poor, I remmeber dark streets and long lines for food and everything else. And I have lived in America for many years now. I vote in every election and the system here in the US is a good one overall. One can critisize everything and here in the US our system gets critisized left and right. But virtually every government official here is democratically elected - from a small-town major to the governor of the state to the representatives in the state senate and assembly, to the senate of the country. It's a system based on a representative democracy. On the federal level, senators have to face lections every 6 years, congressmen every 2 years. In our state, New York, governor is elected every 4 years and the major of New York can only serve 2 terms (8 years). Don't say anything about the US unless you know what you're talking about, and you clearly don't. Free Market democracy rules, and Soviet Union and countries like it suck.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:25 am Post subject:

Mr. Spice,
I just want to express my admiration re your perspective on democracy in US. You have a very intelligent understanding of the way gov't. works here. In fact, You are more informed than perhaps 65% of US citizens. Maybe even more because Americans take their liberty and rights for granted. This is not true everywhere in the world.

Mogsfan · WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490

<edited. -mod>

Damn, this forum has become really boring. It is frustrating when you post a message encompassing common sense and in reply, receive brainwashed rhetoric all the time.

This forum needs more participants. I don't mind a dissenting viewpoint, not at all but at least make sense and have a rational perspective if it differs.

Geez...

Hey, Spice, even if I disagreed with your advocation of free market economies, at least you present reasonable arguments which is more than what I can say for others who disagree.

Everywhere in which communism existed had governments. It might not be the ideal or exact communism by Engles/Marx standards or whatever but that system is not feasible or realistic. The fact I have to tell you this just proves you are totally ignorant and brainwashed, renwan. I guess you can be forgiven since it's been like psychological conditioning based on being brainwashed for decades.

Why can't I group people? It is my theory that the majority are selfish and are only concerned with themselves. There is this fascade of outward concern but even in a collective, the individual is mostly concerned with him/herself. In communism/socialism, the person believes the state is the best way to look after him/herself.

The problem with democracy is that you ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE people to think rationally, not to be too greedy and to have some "socialistic" values in order to deal with the primal nature of man, of the greed and indifference that people can ultimately feel in a market society (which occurs in communist as well but under different circumstances).

Anyway, I'm done wasting my time with you two.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

<edited.-mod>

Renwan: I think you mean to say Marxism is where there is no government...in theory anyway.

init6 · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject:

E, don't feed the troll anymore. Like you mentioned, we're not responding directly to his posts, so let's stay with that "tactic." Wink

We're somewhat unpopular here because we don't take the "ostrich mentality" and say how great and fine everything is in the US and just refuse to deal with the problems, or even admit they exist - that's why Bible-thumping freaks are taking over our government. Because no one wants to admit that the system is completely broken.

I can't speak for Renwan, obviously, but I have two reasons for wanting to visit DPRK. 1) Just to see it and 2) I reject out of hand any government telling me where I can or cannot go, hence I am attracted to visiting places I'm not "supposed to." This is why I want to visit Iran, Syria, Cuba and DPRK. To see it for myself and not believe the propaganda - to believe what my own eyes see. This is a major factor in my travelling to Russia. I reject the anti-Russian slant of Western media and I want to discover this country for myself. People who can think critically and independently are a dying breed. Intellectualism is stifled in the US. It's no longer to be "better" or smarter, it's acceptable to have a buffoon who's an "average Joe" running the country. Not to me.

Anyhow, I think we're making some progress here in this thread and despite some off-topic nonsense and some flame-baiting, we're having a damned fine discussion, MrSpice included! Very Happy

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Looks like you and I want to go to the "Axis of Evil" for the same reasons. I've actually been invited to Iran by some of my Persian friends and I will take them up on that.

But I am kinda leery about N. Korea. As you mentioned earlier, we wont really see the country, we will just be give the carefully planned and coreographed "tour" and be under constant and inclusive survailence 24/7. At least in Iran, Cuba, and Syria things wont be so controlling.

Thats why i'm curious to know why Renwan is going and if he will be as scrutinized and given the phony tour as we would if we went.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

init6: I have noticed the "anti-russian" slant in the media. I actually feel there was too much fanfare about Putin and how great he was until recently when it became clear that he is not that great democratic leader that the west hoped he would be.

As far as your statement that people thinking critically is a dying breed and that somehow being smarter is no longer being in demand here - I completely disagree. In fact, the demand for knowledge-based professions went up significanly in the last few years here in the US. There is where the jobs are. And the best universities in the US are even more popular than in the past. Private and public investement in science and technology is at all time high. I don't see any reason for pessimism. Not everything is good in the US, but you will have a chance to compare your lifestyle and opportunities to those in Moscow which is the most prosperous and richest Russian city. I would like to know what you think after living a few months over there.

As far as Sysria and Iran is concered - you don't have to beleive in propaganda to understand what those countries represent. Iran is controlled by imams and religious fundamentalists. You can read their speeches on many arabic we sites and see for yourself how "wonderful" they are. Syria is a very poor theocracy controller by the Asad clan. The economy is mostly government-controller, the opposition is not permitted, freedom of speach and movement non-existent. I don't think you need to go to Syria to know how bad it is.

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

Ehm....Syria is not a theocracy. Its a military junta dictatorship. Assad Sr effectively exterminated the fundamentalists back in the early 80s. Although they do support Hizbollah and Hamas, its only an alliance of convinience to get at Israel.

I personally know Iranians and Syrians, and they and the majority of the people in those countries and these people and cultures do not at all reflect or support the actions of their leaders. All the more reason why I want go to there and see things for myself rather than to judge because of what Newsweek told me.

And before we start calling other leaders religious fundamentalists, why dont we look into our own backyard to see the religious fundamentalist running our country, who often overlooks the constitution and democracy to impose his "morals" on the country. See Terry Schiavo and Gay Marriage for details.

cyndy22 · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:07 am Post subject:

Referring to Mogsfan as a troll is simply unfair and rude. E and El Casey, while I am well aware of your critical views and seemingly discontent in life in the US, Mogsfan is an intelligent and critical thinker, just what El Casey claims is good and missing in the states. Mogs is also not a yes man to American politics or world politics. If you don't see that by now, you are blind. And E, if the US really sucks so bad, why not take El Casey's approach? Have you even ever left the states? Gotta wonder.

Mogsfan, I know you are discouraged and disheartened but seriously do not allow a couple of posters here to make you want to go away. Really I think it's time for E and Casey to apologize. And I hope they will and not let their egos get in the way. It atleast in my mind is the right thing to do.

Lastly, Mogs, I can't believe I am at the very bottom of your list! Crying or Very sad

I thought you loved me! Smile

init6 · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:56 am Post subject:

I don't have anything to apologize for. He's made personal attacks against me, calling me an "idiot" and so forth, and I've never once directly insulted him (and no, "troll" is not the same). I don't agree with him, so what? He threatens to leave once a week anyway and never does.

renwan · Talk Show Host Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 204

well when you go to the DPRK you get your guides etc etc,its a socialist paradise they can't jsut let you go alone...take pics...give propaganda...spy...there is a lot of things you can do to harm the DPRK, thats why they just dont give you the chance in the first time.

Second I'll be going with the KFA(Korean Friendship Association)--www.korea-dpr.com

I have planned trips for whenever I can to Syria,Cuba,Iran,Lebanon and Vietnam.

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