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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cyndy: it's all good. If you are looking for a combination of beauty, cleanliness and services, go to Paris. It is beautiful and developed and is overall a great city to visit. This time, you don't be disappointed. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Egads, people reading books for free in a book store!! 
LOL. What's wrong with that? Barnes & Noble isn't the only book store to allow that. E was right. The store likes to promote that atmosphere and many customers buy coffee or actually buy a book after reading one. Perhaps, not that day but they go back. They probably didn't finish the book so they buy it or buy another.
They're not able to take the book with them so it's no different from any place that sells magazines or books. Customers browse through a magazine all the time. The bookstore even goes to great lengths by providing chairs and places to sit! Although, where I go (Chapters), there often isn't enough chairs! 
Btw, library branches?!? Do you ever go to the library? What do you think of the library selection?!?
| Anya wrote: |
Allow me to be a little but superficial... now regarding ketchup packs at Macs... well here you pay for each packet (like some countries do) so no sign of that in Moscow.
However when it comes to 'free stuff', it doesn't always have to do with people being poor. Take Singapore for example, even though most people are considered pretty well-ff, people will still pile on ketchup packs even though they are not poor! Sometimes they take a whole wad of free plastic bags in supermarkets, lots of toothpicks in restaurants etc. even though they'll never use the bulk of them. Yes, probably older folks do that more, but that 'freebie' mentality is still there.
One thing that really pissed me off was that when Borders bookstore opened, they attracted a lot of people because you can settle in those comfy chairs and read the books (while most bookstores shoo you out when you browse/read too long and not buy anything) and take the books to read in the cafe. However people came there only to get free reads and hog piles of books--despite the fact that we have a *very good* network of library branches!--and after that Borders disallowed anybody to bring books to the cafe.
And I'm not going into the return policies people often abuse... |
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init6
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Москва, Россия
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Cyndy, I understand where you're coming from of sorts. But, seriously, didn't any guidebooks you read or advice on here prepare you for pay toilets, lack of customer service, etc? It almost seems, to me, like you felt blindsided by the very Russian culture you experienced. Perhaps not "Russian," per se, but definitely a "sovok" attitude. And the babushka that wouldn't let your son use the bathroom for free probably gets a pension of 500 roubles per month and has to supplement her income by being a Toilet Commissar in order to survive. Couldn't you have just given her a R10 note? I doubt she would've turned it down, and it's only 35 cents we're talking.
I know I've built up a reputation with some here as thinking Russia is just gonna be "OMFG great," but a lot of my positive attitude stems from 1) wanting to leave the US for awhile (maybe I'll appreciate it much more when I get back) and 2) extensive reading about Moscow and Russian culture in general, both in books and on websites (and forums). I am starting to get a little more concerned with safety issues in Moscow, but by the same token, I'm hardly some financier or someone who's likely to get involved in inter-gang issues.
I'm getting off-topic, but anyhow, I just think it's unfortunate that a string of "mundane" incidents took the polish off of Piter for you. I know where you're coming from, however, because large problems I tend to roll with while I get absolutely enraged over small problems that really shouldn't be paid much mind in the grand scheme. What can ya do?  |
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| init6: Good point! And yes, you will appreciate the US more when you get back. Especially, the clean air (the exhaust from cars is pretty bad there). |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Of course when I saw saw the old woman giving Alex a hard time re using the toilet, we came to his defense and gave her the fee. But really, it wouldn't of killed the old lady to let a little boy pee without doing a song and dance about it. He's lucky he didn't have an accident.
Some things I was disappointed over were probably mundane but El Casey, I don't believe that many of the difficulties I experienced on this trip would be considered mundane. And until you are in my shoes or should I say wheels, you will not be able to appreciate this. |
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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cyndy: I think you are right about the fact that Russia's travel industry (if you can even call it that) is not prepared adequately for travellers with disabilities. Remember that in the US, it took dozens of years and many local, state and federal laws and rules to make sure that people with disabilities have adequate access to museums, restaurants, public transportation, etc. It's required of many faciliteis in the US to have access for people with disabilities, or the proprietors won't get a license to operate a facility or would face fines. Russia is a new democracy (some people would say it's not even a real democracy), and things like access for people with disabilities are new to Russia. So, in that sense you are on a cutting edge of travellers that demand the highest level of care and service, and I don't think Russia can provide that in most cases as of yet. Most people here don't have special needs, so they don't face those kinds of problems.
As far as that grandma is concerned, you should have told her what you think about her in both languages. I agree that this is ridiculous. On the other hand, all boys that age in place like Pushkin use bushes or trees as a place where they satisfy their needs :) The probability of a fine is rather low. |
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Jutrzenkapolska
VIP
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 534
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds like grandma was one of those pissants that just take a delight in making little boys squirm and their parents sweat.I feel your pain, Cyndy.Always keep lots of extra change in your pockets if you ever go to Poland, it's the same thing there.
Yeah, I got a nice tan in Oahu.  |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: |
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Maybe I misunderstand your comment Mr. Spice about "People here don't have special needs." Perhaps you were being satirical. In any case, just as in all countries there are millions of people with all types of disabilities, some congenital, and many acquired like myself through accidents, illness etc. In fact developing countries probably have higher percetages of people with disabilities due to higher levels of poverty, limited prenatal care, industrial accidents etc.
You are right that Russia's travel industry, which I agree is limited even to the general population, is totally inequipped for tourists with disabilities. Or for parents with strollers even! Of course there is a human rights movement in Russia and I know for a fact that there are grassroots efforts that are lobbying and making small steps toward making life better for citizens with disabilities etc. When I was injured it was 1975 and while access wadn't terrific, I can tell you it was 95% better than what is current in Russia. I know it's unfair for me to compare the two countries since US is democratic and by that, there is more consensus and sympathy to make changes and laws re access for all. Perhaps I should start a thread on WTR on Persons with Disabilities. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| cyndy22 wrote: | Barley,
You were of course thinking. There is no reason why you should not have been free to take that simple photograph. Your son is very lucky to live in US. |
You know what? I just thought of a great idea! Ever heard of Zadornov? He is a Russian comedian who was denied an American visa because he always uses them as objects of ridicule (he has been there several times, and in 2003 they would not let him schedule his concert). Well, I must admit that Cyndy and Winston are far less talanted than Zadornov and will never be even close to his level, but you two should organize a travelling circus! Call it "Dumb and Dumber".
Vic
P.S. Very, very very very lucky to be born in, live, and be a citizen of the Russian Federation.
Last edited by Vic on Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Cyndy wrote: |
You make some good points but so called tourist places are places where most visitors go in major cities. And these tourist places charge high admission for non Russians. You might think I am a snob but I expect better service, not only in private sector but public too. One incident I will share is one day in Piter, I took one of the towels in our hotel room wityh me for the day, because it was quite warm. The next morning at 7:30 am I awoke to a telephone call from the hotel. They were upset about one stupid towel that I borrowed for the day. "There must be 6 towels in each room," I was reprimanded. That is one example of the lack of freedom and disrectful service, even if it is a silly story. At the Marrinsky theatre, Natasha was not able to sit with us because tourists must sit in the expensive tourist section and Russians sit elsewhere
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Yeah, and they are damn right to do so. Let me explain briefly:
The tickets for Russian citizens are cheaper because ALL theaters, museums*, historical locations are funded by the Ministry of Culture of the Russian Federation. The ministry gets their money from the State Budget, the State Budget gets it's money from the taxpayers - Russian citizens. Comprende, Cyndy? |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Retiring...
Last edited by vitalsigns on Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MrSpice
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 3431
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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cyndy: What I meant was that people here, on this forum, don't have any disabilities and therefore have different impression of the service level for travellers. When I said "people here", I mean "here on the forum", not "here in Russia" or "here in the US".
Again, you should realize that democracy, grass-root movement, pressure on the government are very new to russia. In the US, people with disabilities have a lot of power because they are usually more active in politics than the majority of Americans. Overall, there's a sense in America that minorities of all kinds have to be protected and made comfortable, sometimes to a fault. Some of the state and local laws requiring access for people with disabilities are rather and were passed just 5-10 years ago even here - in the 200+ year old democracy. In any case, you could read about that before you went to russia and adjust your expectations. I don't think you would survive in the New York subway for long. There are elevators on some stations that provide access for the disabled, but they are often broken and many stations don't have them. I don't think it is easy to be disabled in any large city with lots of busy people running somewhere... Don't forget - russia still has a lot of people like Vic. Enough said :) |
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cyndy22
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1076
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| OKAY, now I get your point. However there are people on this forum besides myself that have disabilities. There have been atleast 3 other people who have posted that use wheelchairs. And undoubtly there are others who have some type of disabilities whether it be physical, sensory, health related, mental, or learning. The fact is pople are anonymous for the most part on internet forums. BTW NYC is pretty good for access. All of the buses are accessible. I will be in NYC in September. Got tickets at Yankee Stadium to see Red Sox Yankees game!!! Go Sox! |
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gonethesun
Frequent Guest
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Exeter, NH
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| MrSpice wrote: | | First of all, this historic beaty and sense that the center of the city was built and designed to look beautiful. There are many places in New York that look beautiful, but the city was built up sporadically based mostly on commerical need. Basically, that's how US cities are different from European Cities. |
Kind of a crackpot statement. No major US city was built sporadically or based mostly upon commercial need. Lost Angeles maybe comes closest to that idea, and see what it gets you? Endless rolling traffic jams, no city center, no downtown, one shopping plaza after another.
Moscow certainly was a city that reminded me more of Lost Angeles than NYC, for example. Moscow is a sprawling monster of a city that is growing faster than its planners can solve problems. Outside of the center of the city, it was difficult to see how anything was truly planned. Old multi-story stone faced buildings onto which bright flashing neon "CASINO" signs have been slapped. Poorly planned road systems buried under an increasing tide of licensed drivers. As someone with a degree in civil engineering, these problems are painfully obvious. I have to give credit to the Metro in Moscow though, one of the most amazing mass people moving devices in the world.
City planning, zoning laws, planning boards ... these things exist in abundance in US cities. Central Park was planned, it was not by accident nor based upon commercial needs. In most downtown regions of most US cities you are quite restricted by the style, height, and nature of the business you can put there. This is why in most US cities you dont have casinos or strip clubs next to or even near schools, churches, etc.
That being said, St. Petersburg was designed to be beautiful, to be a showcase of Russia to the rest of Europe. The closest comparison that could be made is Washington, D.C., which is one of the first and most distinctly planned cities in the US.
However, where Washington consists of cold stone monuments and museums, built by elected politicians who must justify the spending of tax dollars ... St. Petersburg is a golden city with an architectural flourish that only a Tzar could create or mandate. |
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gonethesun
Frequent Guest
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Exeter, NH
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| MrSpice wrote: | | Some of the state and local laws requiring access for people with disabilities are rather and were passed just 5-10 years ago even here - in the 200+ year old democracy. |
The American with Disabilities Act was approved in 1990 and took effect in 1992. It supersedes all state and local laws; in fact, that is what it specifically was intended to do (no local or state law can take away what the ADA provides to the disabled). 1992 was 13 years ago and counting.
I can't think of unfair advantages that the handicapped or disabled are given by law, other than the best parking spots. Sometimes there are Americans that try to scam that for close proximity parking at Wal-Mart ... but I'll keep my legs and settle for parking a distance away.
If nothing else, a trip to Russia will teach you that Americans sure don't walk enough. To this one of my Russian friends said "Your government should MAKE you all walk more!" |
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