Way to Russia Community and Forum

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I want to remind everyone that Russia was a socialist state just 20 years ago, and was extremely undeveloped in all things related to touirism just 10 years ago. You cannot apply the same standard to Russia in terms of services as you would apply to European countries or the USA. It's a miracle that Russia has become as relatively stable country. Anyone who visited russia just 5,6 or 10 years ago would know what I am talking about.

init6 · Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject:

Agreed, Spice. And that is one reason I'm not so quick to criticize Putin. He's reversed and "fixed" the chaos of the fat, drunken idio...I mean, Yeltsin years.

But Russia's tax system is just plain WEIRD. It's regressive from 26% to 2%, yet it doesn't start to regress until your monthly income is something like R300,000!! The employee pays 13% payroll tax, the employer pays 13%. That's actually LESS than what is usually withdrawn from American paychecks (30%+). But it also results in peoples' "official" wages often being far less than what they are paid and subsequently taxed on.

A progressive tax scale from say 15% to 50% seems a lot more reasonable to me, using far more realistic numbers than $10K/month (R300K).

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject:

So in this reality and with the spirit of things El Casey and Mr. Spice, what is your best educated guess if you will when the Duma will insititute more economically fair policies to taxes, etc. I know I can be a brat sometimes! Smile

I am in good company! Laughing

BTW Case,
Just because someone works in financial services anywhere in the world, really should not make them suspect. Your leftist mentality is showing it's non-flattering side. Smile

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I actually think that the flat 13% is a great thing. Americans spend billions of dollars and days of precious time filling out tax returns. Not to mention corporations that have huge staffs of highly paid accountats dealing with thick tax code books. The idea of having one flat tax with minium or no deductions is a great idea and it seems to work quite well in many other eastern european countries like Estonia or Slovakia. The reason the tax is now so low in Russia is that if you raise it, no one will pay taxes. Not to mention that all kinds of corruption constitute an invisible tax for most Russian businesses. You pay "extra" to register your business. You pay extra to make sure you have no problems with tax authorities. You pay extra to get your commercial property that is often in city's or government's hands at a good price. It's not a place where law is paramount. So, rates by themselves don't mean much there for most people and businesses.

Flat tax or nearly flat tax system makes it much more difficult for people and corporations to avoid paying taxes. When the country like the US is so used to a variety of deductions, it's difficult to change that mindset.

Intourist · Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject:

Intourist · Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject:

cyndy22 · Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject:

Intourist you make some good points. Even little Estonia has taken much bigger steps to promote tourism. For example, there was no two-tiered pricing for locals/tourists; imagine some tourist attractions were even free, i.e. on the island Sarramaarea, there was no admission to see lighthouse and roam the beach, in addition to other stops.

No country is of course perfect and even Estonia has its ventured Capitalists. For example, my Estonian friends made reservations for us all to stay at country villa on Sarramaaea. When we arrived there, we found access problem for me in our room's bathroom due to my wheelchair. The owner of this villa however was an amazing woman who clearely was understanding of our needs, wanted to help and even took it a few steps further to try and rectify the situation.

She was amazingly kind and good willed. She contacted one of her neighbors 2 minutes away who also had villa and she thought that villa would accommodate us much better. Okay, we go there, meet the owner and see the property. While the room was indeed more spacious and I would have been able to use the bathroom, his rental fee was 3 times as much as what we would pay at the other villa. Not only that, we would have been separated from our friends. He would not budge on price despite my effort.

So we chose to stay at original planned villa. and this incredibly kind Estonian owner of the villa went way beyond the call of duty to make our stay as comfortable as possible. It's all in the attitude!

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Cyndy: Estonia is much smaller than Russia, much more organized and was under socialism for a shorter period of time. Even in the Soviet times, life in Estonia was better than in Russia, streets were cleaner and work ethic was close to the West's. As a rule in most large cities in the world things are expensive for both tourists and residents alike. Obviously, russia can do much more to promote tourism. But you have to understand - one does not go to Russia to discover amazing service and free attractions. One goes to russia because it's an "exotic" destination, because it's not like most of European countries, because it looks "soviet" at times, because of this unusual mix of capitalism and russian culture. You keep focusing on the service aspects. But if service what you really care about, you should not have gone to Russia. Russia is a developing country where the average salary in the country is about $200/month, and average salary in St Petersburg is about $250/month, many large companies are still controlled partially or fully by the government. If you go to Inida, you don't exect to see Swedish comfort. By the same token, most American cities look non-descriptive compare to most cities in Europe. Not to mention that most large cities here have many areas that look terrible - even worse than poor, remote areas of St Petersburg.

Intourist · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:48 am Post subject:

Spice, again, with all due respect, but Estonia (and other Baltics were 'Soviet' for forty years to your seventy. Still a long time. While admittedly smaller and perhaps more easily managed, I nevertheless find it a question of attitude. Russia *can* change if it so desires. Unfortunately, it doesn't. It's grown complacent and indifferent. People can't effect change politically, and they've stopped pretending they ever did.

You're right, you shouldn't come to Russia if you're concerned about service, because it's hard to find here. If Russia should more actively promote tourism, as you say is obvious, this is where it should begin. Unfortunately, Spice, there are far more exoctic places that are welcoming and friendly, too. It's unfortunate because it's self inflicted. Russia's just shooting itself in the foot from being unfriendly and charging tourists more.

cyndy22 · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject:

I have been to Russia twice now. Granted I was a tourist. Well the 1st time it was for the adoption. Anyways, while Russia is a very interesting country I agree with Intourist that there are many other exotic destinations that are more hospitable to tourists. And there are many other places I woulds like to visit such as Buenos Aires, Isla Margarita, an island off of Venezuela, more of France, Scandinavia, Spain, Sicily etc. also other parts of the US such as the south west and pacific north west. While I won't completely rule out returning to Russia if Alex wants to visit the city where he was born etc. when he is older, now I am more comfortable and happier to travel to other destinations when I am lucky enough to have the money and time. I do think that Russia would greatly benefit if they did care more about tourism however.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

Intourist: As I said, Estonia is a much more developed nation than Russian and always was. It's a different culture. Even in the soviet times when everything was and looked the same in all cities in soviet union, once you crossed the border into estonia, you could see the difference. The streets were cleaner and everything worked better. I am not excusing russia's poor tourist facilities, I am just trying to explain why they are not up to the standard of some european countries. The "face" of russia that people see when they get to Moscow or St Petersburg is quite different from smaller cities and towns. It will take a while for Russia to become as trourist-friendly as even Estonia, if ever.

I personally think that one should concentrate on things that are timeless like beautiful buildings, architecture, bridges, views, etc. and on cultural things. That is what Russia is good for. If you don't care about this or if it makes no difference for you whether you see Neva river in St Petersburg or Danube in Vienna - no reason to go to Russia.

I am certain that Cyndy has not visited or seen many of the marvels of St Petersburg since she would not have enough time. I also think the fact that so many signs are in Russian and so few people speak and understand English makes it less inviting for many tourists. Since I speak the language and had no language barrier, it was easy and fun for me, but someone like cyndy could have a hard time.

cyndy22 · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:46 am Post subject:

Mr. Spice,
I want to say to you and any other person who has an interest in seeing St . Petersburg, that YES YES YES, Piter is an outstanding city with respect to magnificient architecture. Piter is beautifully designed and layed out and is a very romantic and aesthetic city.

Yes I was only there for five nights so of course I was not able to see everything. But I did see and experience alot during my short stay, which in fact is longer than most tourists there. Also I had been to Russia 7 years before and subsequently studied Russian language, culture etc. I assure you I am far from the typical SPB tourist.

I understand and really do empathize with your love for Piter. In fact I am very glad that you still have this love and admiration for your city and I hope you always will.

You need to understand however that tourists are tourists and people like myself who spend hard earned money to travel and are used to relative comfort are not going to be too pleased with so called standard Russian accommodations, service and lackadiasical interest in tourists.

Budapest does sound interseting but I must admit that I need a break and re-charging from my last trip. Though please don't get me wrong, I am glad I visited Piter. And believe it or not I will cherish good memorories probably more than bad.
Smile

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I understand that and as I pointed to you several times, the accomodation you chose was a bad one and is known for poor, "soviet-style" customer service. The last time I went to London, I paid through the roof for a very simple hotel too which provided viertually no service for $150/night. As I said before, travel during off-season months, like August and stay at a boutique-style, small, new hotels that are often owned and managed by western firms and provide wonderful service at a reasonable cost.

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