Way to Russia Community and Forum

Vic · Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: Hurricane Katrina

What do you all think about this event? And in particular the governments lack of action to help the people in need? Word has it that the death toll is over 10 thousand now and cholera is beginning in the city of New Orleans (or what is left of it).

In all honesty, I know that the U.S. government is irrisponsible, but I never expected them to drop to this level. For 5 days tens of thousands of people were stranded in a city with no food or clean water (except for what they could save before the hurricane or what they could steal), hundreds of people in hospitals DYING because there was no electricity or water, thousands living in unsanitary conditions while the rescuers were bringing up several people an hour. All this time, the United States refused international help when they had not nearly enough rescuers to help the people in need. 2 days ago, Finally, the U.S. accepted humanitarian aid from the Russian Federation and some other countries, but I do not see much point. We sent 3 MCHS Russia aircraft (they will do 4 trips between New Orleans and Moscow - 4 loads of aid). Generators, water purification facilities, blankets, food rations, tents, RESCUE HELICOPTERS! Please tell me, what is the need for half of this aid when everyone that could be rescued is and most that were at risk of death are dead? Are the rescue helicopters supposed to pick up corpses from the streets or what?? This is reality - the people NEEDED help, we offered it, the government refused it! Goes to show how much they care about their own people, doesn't it? So when it comes to invading other countries and killing other civilians - they are the first to go in, but when it comes to saving their own - they aren't too quick about it! The least they could do was accept the help - we alone could have saved HUNDREDS of lives. This is disgusting. It is governments like that that need to be put on trial for crimes against humanity. What do others here think about this? For me - this makes me sick.
Vic

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

Not to hurt your or Russians' feelings... but from a purely emergency-management point of view, sending aircraft across the atlantic is indeed impractics. I have no doubt that the local emergency management had the capacity or experience for dealing with hurricanes, however IMHO, this was an extremely rare event, a Category-5 hurricane making landfall at full-force, and this would easily overwhelm everything, 3 more planes wouldn't make a difference.

The government refused, but it wasn't the worst thing-- it was their folly for not acting fast enough and not knowing the potential disaster that would originate from it. Hurricanes hit the US every year, so what would another one bring? I think this attitude that 'we've been through this before' was the mistake.

chucknfw · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:23 am Post subject:

First of all you have to understand that the State of Louisiana is the most backward and corrupt of all the states in the U.S. As a result, the local and state level responses failed. There is a proper chain of events that take place in order for to have a federal response. The President declared a national disaster before the storm hit which was an unprecedented response to help get the relief system rolling.

"New Orleans, with fewer than 500,000 people, had almost half the murders of New York, which had 570 homicides last year in a city of more than 8 million. Put another way, if New York had New Orleans' murder rate, we would have more than 4,200 murders a year.

Last July, his office prepared DVDs warning that, if the city ever had to be evacuated, residents were on their own. Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation." Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Michael Goodwin

This city was in trouble before the catastrophe.

It took a call from the President before mayor Nagin would even issue evacuation orders. Those orders should have come much sooner. The mayor knew that its poorest didn't have transportation, but didn't provide.

"The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance." Bob Williams, Wall Street Journal Op Ed.

I know that there are issues in regards to FEMA's response, and there is no question that some of the blame is on the President. However, it isn't fair to put the line share of the blame in his lap when the state was totally inept in its response.

tdk2fe · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:15 am Post subject:

A lot of people are pissed off about it. There were failures at every level, and it's bullshit that an investigation will be launched "sometime", and this investigation (which is supposed to be bipartisan) is being spearheaded by President Bush.

I agree, it says a lot about a government when they dive into foreign wars without verifying information, but then can't provide for the welfare of its common, tax-paying people in the event of a catastrophe. I wonder how much money and effort we've put into equipment and supplies and training for citizens of foreign countries versus the equipment and supplies that have gone into this event.

In my city, about 500 miles north of New Orleans, we have shelters and supplies and medical teams waiting, but there's "no money" to transport those people up there.

Give me a break....

tdk2fe

cyndy22 · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:31 am Post subject:

Yes this is a tragic catastrophe. The US federal govt. was incompetent to respond quickly and I do think the Bush administration should bear responsibility for this in the sense that emergency responses were so negligent. But Mediashark is also right. The US govt. was not prepared for this hurricaine of this tumultuous nature. Yes they should be and perhaps now they will be. This event has shown US citizens and others around the world just how horrible natural disasters can strike and no one is immune. While this hurricaine struck among a high minority and poor population, it could have struck anywhere. I don't think it is appropriate or ethical however for people who clearly harbor such gross, negative opinions of the US to express condescending views. I do not object to criticism re the wy the US Govt. has/is responding to this national crisis, but I do object to opinions and specifically, Vic's.

All nations are not immune from devastating natural catastrophes and most unfortunately are not prepared. It is grim and worse, countries such as the USA have been lucky to have escaped such massive natural catastrophe disasters. I am not excusing the US govt. because YES INDEED THEY SHOULD OF HAD THEIR ACT TOGETHER TO HANDLE THIS SITUATION. But Vic and anyone else who is so critical of the US Gov't's response to this- Do you really think your gov't would be prepared and able tp provide immediate relief? The US gOV'T IS FAR FROM PERFECT BUT TRUST ME, IT IS SUPERIOR,AT THIS TIME TO THE CURRENT GOV'T. IN RUSSIA.

tdk2fe · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:11 am Post subject:

I think one great thing about this is not so much the government's response, but the citizens of the USA. Yes, we can all agree that the government should have done more, and the fact that they didn't really pisses me off.

But look at the way the citizens are handling this. So many people from states as far away as Illinois have put their personal lives aside and driven to this city to help people. People are taking their boats out and actually saving people. People are donating their houses to vicitms of this catastrophe. People are driving vans down to the disaster areas and donating the vans to people with nothing.

Yes, our government very well may have failed us, but our citizens have risen where our government has fallen.

tdk2fe

e · VIP Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 654

I think chucknfw is most correct here. It isn't the US govt that is to blame per se, but moreso local and state officials who seemingly didn't have an adequate plan other than to "get everyone out now" act swiftly or as responsively to it, or take advantage of the fact that the US govt did declare a state of emergency and declared the south a disaster area long before it hit.

As mediashark mentioned too, I think the Louisiana government fell into a false state of complacency --"we'll ride this one out" --especially with how they got away with Hurricane Ivan last year which actually went right over nearly the exact same path as Katrina did. Plus: the national guard/milita -- help and aid in this case--, can only be deployed at the request of the state governor and by the US president. Something that neither did until after the city was flooded. As chucknfw mentioned, it seems that the Louisana govt had no plan, especially regarding evacuating the poor, no coordination between them, the city, and the feds, and simply waited for the feds to do something.

And then there is where I live. Here in disaster prone Cal, the State government and the Feds move and moved in quickly and swiftly. In the last big quake here, aid, help, and security from the state,the Feds, and even foreign were here within 12-24 hrs after the gov asked for it, as opposed to almost 3 days for New Orleans.

Then you gotta wonder with a quarter of your land area with your largest city sitting below sea level and is prone to hurricanes and floods, why is there no elaborate flood/tidal protection/control system like how it is in the Netherlands as oppposed to just having flimsy earthen/concrete barriers and levees?

mister_wizzz · VIP Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 582

It is obvious US gov was not prepared for such disaster, and I cannot believe Bush is cynical enough not to help people because they are black and poor (understand : they didn't vote for him), bush is the president of US so the President of all Americans.
As for Vic says about undreds lifes which could be saved if US accepted international help, well, I don't think it would have changed the situation, US have enough materials : pumps, helicopters and so on... the problem was a lack of organization and communication between the elected responsibles of Louisiane and the federal state.

I didn't say US gov did its work properly, US gov refused to fund works to make sea barriers stronger, the risk was known and as usual a disaster has to occur to wake up politicians (and I am not talking only about US).

Rick · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject:

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

Yes, deleted.

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

I think this is not a matter of showing off on either side. I know the Bush administration has quite a few pro-Russian folks, and they are well-aware that any form of aid from Russia is going to cost Russia some funds and resources. It was stated clearly that the US is thankful to Russia for the generous offer, but they feel it's better to spend those resources back home than to spend time and money to fly them over the Atlantic Ocean.

On the Russian side, I think it was only the fact that they, as the largest country in the world, should not turn a blind eye to a disaster and offer as much help as they can. As much improvished as Russia may seem, they are demonstrating the generousity so well known of the Russian people when it comes to tragedy like this.

The extent of the disaster has touched everyone, I don't think we should blame anyone for showing-off. If we continue playing blame-games, it will only hurt those who survived the hurricane more.

init6 · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject:

The latest I saw was that the US never said "No, thanks" to Russia but basically didn't say anything to them. I can't imagine what they said when Belarus offered them aid!

But in order to pay for the wars (Iraq & Afghanistan) huge amounts of funds were diverted from flood control programs in Louisiana, the EPA, and other organizations responsible for hurricane damage prevention and hurricane relief efforts. This is fact, not opinion.

Several government agencies made it very clear to this administration that hurricane damage, especially in light of reduced prevention measures, could easily cripple the region's oil output and could lead to widespread chaos, which is exactly what happened. To paraphrase a column I saw in yesterday's Moscow Times, "...Bush thinking he could wage several wars without paying for them was a disaster - indeed, several disasters - waiting to happen."

And now we have tens of thousands dead, the veneer of the entirety of American affluence has been stripped away and the foolish idea that smaller government is just a cure-all is not looking so hot. Small government where we need government has led to the catastrophe in New Orleans.

I don't pretend to know the ins-and-outs because I'm not in Florida anymore, I'm in Moscow, so the Times and NTV are my main news sources (Segodnya is not a bad news program as far as just finding out what happened each day). I just think it's a damned shame that so many people needed to die before people started waking up and thinking, "You now, he's not just a right-wing nutjob Bible-thumper, he's actually an incompetent fool whose administration cost people their lives!").

I don't have to worry about it until next year (and even then, it's likely I'll be back in Moscow before hurricane season), but it's still my country, my neighbors (as far as being other Southerners) and it pisses me off. Once again, the shitty end of the stick gets handed to the underclass while King George gives that ridiculous smirk and says, "Whoops...we'll get right on that."

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

Link for donations
http://www.redcross.org/

Vic · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject:

cyndy22 · Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:56 am Post subject:

Vic is right in the sense that in no way should I have said that the US Gov't is superior to Russia in this specific catastrophic situation. Clearly US state and federal gov't. were not prepared and acted irresponsibly and even criminally IMHO. I can only hope that US citizens finally wake up and see Bush's true colors and the incompetence of this administration. I would impeach him in a heart beat if I had the power.

That being said, I hope that people from all countries will feel more compassion about the USA than perhaps before. It is hard not to feel compassion when you see ordinary people like you or me suffering and dying with little hope. Unfortunatly aside from the incompetence, I do believe that rascism and economic status were factors here as well. It is sad but often true that the disenfranchasized people of the world are not regarded as worthy as others. It is shameful but a reality.

Vic, I know you have a sour opinion of US including politics , culture etc. and certainly this disaster and failed efforts of the US Govt. obviously add fuel to your fire. But, and this is hard to say and even harder for you to swallow- The US will learn with a capital L from this trajedy. It will result in making for a more efficient, responsible and compassionate gov't. and nation. I wish you weren't so angry and bitter about the US. No COUNTRY, NO PERSON, NO FAMILY, IN ESSENCE, nothing is perfect or even close. Smile

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