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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Yes, deleted.
Last edited by vitalsigns on Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Moscow isn't Russia. It's a state within a state. Call it a bureaucratic fort or whatever, but its residents are usually better off than the rest of Russia. |
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byte
Frequent Guest
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:47 am Post subject: |
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The devastating effect of Katrina on Louisiana surprised me. I remember hurricanes in the news hitting the American east coast. Mostly with only material damage. You guys seemed always well-prepared.
It seems a divided nation after all... |
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mediashark
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I follow a storm-chasers' email list, and came across an excellent post:
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Probably the most straightforward way to see who did what wrong is to make a list of responsibilities and actions for the various groups. I'll take a stab but I can't guarantee I am correct. You can modify mine or suggest it differently as you like:
The President - Bush - Responsibility is to monitor and declare the area a national disaster area so that they can receive additional assistance and funding. Establish national policy in coordination with Congress - such as relates to Homeland Security. Not sure what other responsibilities other
than updating the public.Actions Bush did this like 48 hours in advance of landfall. Certainly he had conversations with FEMA and most likely NWS was providing info about the strength of the hurricane and possible implications. Not sure what else he did.
Congress - Responsibility To vote on and appropriate funds for recovery. Approval of Homeland Security and funding or budget cuts. Actions They did this starting a few days late but have now appropriated like 60 Billion dollars for recovery. It is estimated to be eventually 100 Billion which matches my early estimate. Funding for terrorist attacks may have removed funding from New Orleans for improving the levee system.
FEMA - Responsibility Assist the local gov in creating a plan for emergency preparedness for various emergency scenarios such as hurricane and levee breach. They also probably act as liason to the President & Congress to help present what needs the states may require for emergencies and to help coordinate that. They also probably may be in the loop for providing resources (although this is unknown) when they are needed and requested by local and state gov. Actions - Unknown. We assume they did something though it is tough to tell what it without detailed examination. Tell New Orleans they'd help concrete the levees?
Department of Homeland Security - Responsibility Not sure what they do for Hurricanes and national disasters Actions Not sure what they did, but they seem to have a role to play. Someone else can figure this out.
Governor - Responsibility Is aware of local cities requirements for safety and evacuations. Would be aware of the New Orleans disaster scenario. Would work with Mayor and city official to establish a plan and funding for public safety. I believe they also have to give final word to allow mandatory evactuations. Actions It is unclear if they allowed mandatory evacuations because even though they may have initially lately she has been arguing with the Mayor over whether it should be done or not.
Certainly they had some plan, but apparently the Gov was unable to make sure the city plan was implemented properly, or it was a very poor plan.
Mayor - Responsibility Is certainly aware of city requirements and would have primary responsibility for overseeing an emergency preparedness plan for the city of New Orleans along with their staff and other city offices. This would include what would be done, how it would be done, what and who would be involved. And it should include some mock disaster drills and scenarios as well as studies concerning public safety. They would also be aware of the levee situation and would be responsible for discussing with the Gov and FEMA / NWS scientists any concerns or requirements for special needs or assistance. Actions It appears the Mayor along with the Gov were slow to declare mandatory evacuations were required despite 60 hours advance warnings by the NWS. It does not appear the plan for the 'big one' hitting NO was set in motion or if it was it was a very poor plan. Supposedly I have heard that FEMA offered them to concrete the levees a few years back but the city / Mayor turned them down?
Even a short glance at this list so far seems to indicate it is a failure at all levels of government; however to me it looks weighted to the bottom. Whereas the President, Congress, FEMA, and DHS all have a role to play it looks to me that poor preparations, inadaquate levee improvments, and lame evacuations are main contributors. If they had a problem they should have yelled loudly to FEDs to do something earlier. I haven't heard of this being much of an issue at least not in the media in the recent past. On the other hand it also seems that somehow FEMA didn't ensure a good plan in place, and not sure the President and Congress were focused on these types of issues as it appears they may be primarily focused on things like anti-terrorism.
Please feel free to correct this template, or add additional things. |
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e
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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That email is a bit off in a few ways:
FEMA became part of the Department of Homeland Security about 2 years ago, so technically FEMA is no longer an independent agency. It has to answer to the DHS before anything now. One could argue that this is how and why FEMA and the US gov screwed up so badly in this case --being run and held by a government agency (DHS) that has nothing to do with natural disasters and has no real experience of dealing with them.
Back when it was independent, FEMA was also one of the most powerful agencies and probably one of the most anti-democratic. During a state of emergency declared by the Pres, FEMA could and does control everything: food, farms, infrastructure, power plants, civil control, relocates people (by force if necessary).
Also left out of that email: Governor (moreso) and Pres calls in the National Guard and Militia, and can order martial law (military rule) and was suposed to have called them in, but waited until 2-3 days afterward to do so. Mayor can technically call in National Guard on his own, and call for martial law. He didn't do that either for some reason.
| Quote: | | Is certainly aware of city requirements and would have primary responsibility for overseeing an emergency preparedness plan for the city of New Orleans along with their staff and other city offices. This would include what would be done, how it would be done, what and who would be involved. And it should include some mock disaster drills and scenarios as well as studies concerning public safety. |
Every city, county and state is supposed to have a branch/department called the "Office of Emergency Management" or OEM, that is supposed to be doing all of those things and more. Looks like Lousiana's and NO's OEM was asleep at the wheel.  |
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mediashark
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: BBC news article |
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Powell criticises storm response
Former US Secretary of State Colin Powell has added his voice to criticism of the hurricane rescue effort.
Mr Powell said he could not understand why more preparations had not been made, in an interview to be broadcast on US television on Friday.
A new opinion poll by the Pew Research Center suggests two-thirds of Americans think President George Bush could have done more in the disaster aftermath.
US Under-Secretary of State Karen Hughes backed the president's response.
She said allegations that he was not doing all he could to help were heartbreaking to him.
'Blinding obvious'
American political figures in both the Republican and Democrat parties have criticised the slow response to the disaster.
The BBC's Justin Webb in Washington says Mr Powell's views will be listened to with particular interest - as a highly respected figure and a prominent black American.
Mr Powell told ABC there had been "a lot of failures at a lot of levels - local, state and federal".
"There was more than enough warning over time about the dangers to New Orleans. Not enough was done," he said.
The Pew Research Center poll indicated that two-thirds of the African-Americans questioned believed the government reaction would have been faster if most of those affected had been white.
But Mr Powell said so many African-Americans were left unprotected because they were poor, rather than because they were black.
It "should have been a blinding flash of the obvious... that when you order a mandatory evacuation, you can't expect everybody to evacuate on their own", he said.
Mr Powell's interview comes amid a growing partisan rift over the form of an inquiry into the government response.
Democratic leaders said they would refuse to appoint members to a committee that Republican leaders plan to create.
Republicans said they would aim to go ahead, despite the threatened boycott. One accused the Democrats of seeking to score political points in the aftermath of the disaster.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/americas/4229238.stm
Published: 2005/09/09 11:55:56 GMT
© BBC MMV |
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mediashark
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
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DennisF
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject: Responsibilities: legal and moral |
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In the United States system of government, states have the first responsibility to care for their people. When it became obvious that Katrina was coming ashore near New Orleans, most citizens wisely heeded the evacuation orders and left. At least those with transportation did. The majority of the remaining people are poor, underemployed, and, most importantly, depend on public transportation. The city bus system shut down because the city busses were ordered out of town to high ground before the storm came ashore. They left EMPTY!! Now that falls under the umbrella of Mayor Nagin. Those vehicles should have picked people up at designated evacuation points for free. The busses were leaving anyway. The school district transportation system left all their busses in the parking lots shere they sit flooded today. With proper publicity close to 7 or 8 thousand people could have been evacuated before the storm hit. The city government failed its citizens terribly.
The governor of the state of Louisiana must ask for assistance before the federal government can begin many of its recovery and assistance programs. Governor Blanco waited too late to save many of her constituents.
The federal government should have moved quicker in it's response once asked. Any idiot could have seen that help would be needed desparately by the people of south Louisiana and Mississippi. They could have had prepositioned people waiting to help. President Bush declared a federal disaster before the storm even came ashore, a act unprecedented in our country's history. The beauracracy (sp. for Cajuns) is where our government so often fails at times when quick and decisive action is needed.
What's done is done (or not done). I have donated furniture, money, food, and my time as a healthcare provider to assist thousands of evacuees that have come to my community. My church has guaranteed the rents for 10 apartments for a year, if needed. I and some of my friends have assisted in feeding over a thousand families here and in Lake Charles, Louisiana. We have furnished 15 apartments with donated furniture, accesories, and food. I have medically screened and treated hundreds of people in the past 5 days.
We need to get past the blame game. I feel quite sure that the politcians and lawyers will soon begin it in earnest. There are people who have lost everything: family, homes, possessions, friends, and their community and way of life. They need our help. Your great country of Russia has graciously sent supplies and assistance. For that I am grateful, truly grateful. We, as a human race, need to get past our differences and focus on our similarities. The US has sent help in the past to other areas of the world where disasters caused human suffering. You have sent help in the same way. These disasters, horrible as they are, bring out the best in most of us and, unfortunately, the worst in some of us.
Please pray for the victims of this, and other, disasters. People in Japan have just experienced what happened to the US as well. Let'[s not forget them in the midst of the media blitz. working hard here in Texas DennisF |
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Odabo
Frequent Guest
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Responsibilities: legal and moral |
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| DennisF wrote: | | ... The city bus system shut down because the city busses were ordered out of town to high ground before the storm came ashore. They left EMPTY!! Now that falls under the umbrella of Mayor Nagin. Those vehicles should have picked people up at designated evacuation points for free. The busses were leaving anyway. The school district transportation system left all their busses in the parking lots shere they sit flooded today. With proper publicity close to 7 or 8 thousand people could have been evacuated before the storm hit. The city government failed its citizens terribly. ... |
Wonderful post about miserable management. Nearly every panhandler I have ever been aproached by, and I have turned down, in Miami had better social skills towards me then that New Orleans Mayor on TV had towards anyone. I think it is likely New Orleans took Federal Grant Money for developing a Hurricane plan. If they did, what did they spend the money on? Brings to mind the horrible truth "Voters always get the politicians they deserve". |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yesterday there was a really good special on RTR-Russia after Vesti Nedelya about the hurricane.
This really is crazy! If this were to happen in Russia, Shoigu (Minister of Emergency situations), Rashid Nurgaliyev (M of the interior) and Ivanov (M of defence) and a whole lot of others from those ministers + the heads of the local structures would get their have their ass turned into grass and would be fired before they would be able to blink!
Does not matter what Spice says about "the power structure" in the U.S. where nothing can go wrong - if all of them are corrupt it makes no difference how many levels are supposed to be there. You guys could really learn a thing or two from us. (Or from Indonesia for that matter)
Vic
P.S. Cutting the budget of the maintanence of the levies and flood control systems in New Orleans by 80% annualy does not blow over well. If the hurricane wouldn't have destroyed it, something else would have. |
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sputnik
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Previous disasters (man made or not) have happened in Russia, and Shoigu, Ivanov and Nurgliyev have all gotten away with it while people died. Like it was argued in the other thread about Kursk and all. It was only when the prez finally realise that these people can't handle it themselves that he stepped in and put a stop to all that nonsense. You may recall that he was very speedy and decisive in the aircraft hijack that occured not too soon after the Kursk disaster. Shoigu and Ivanov are close to Putin, in that way, they have immunity.
There is no power structure in the world where nothing can go wrong. What is more worrying, however, is that information did not seem to have managed to get to the top BEFORE the hurricane hit.
Did NO's poorer citizens asked for help in evacuation?
Did NO's leaders realise that the poor had no means to evacuate?
Did NO's govonor ask for transport to bring poor people out of the danger zones?
Well, that was something that could have prevented, but this broken link in the communication (rather than power) chain was probably the cause of most of the damage.
Very few, of not no structures have been designed to hold out a Category-5 hurricane. You have to get out to survive. They knew tit was coming, but they wasted this time or just did not realise that no everyone could get out. |
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Vic
Talk Show Host
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, Mediashark, he have never had such a natural disaster with such a death toll and such inaction from the government. Yes, I know that people die as a result of natural disasters in Russia, but the ammount is very small and the Ministry of Emergencies is usually very organised. The only exception I can think of in the last while is in the spring when there was a flood somewhere in the far east and they did not evacuate most populace from a 40-person village because it was completely isolated YET - an MCHS helicopter visited them before the flood and said "Evacuate" but most people refused. Than, when the village flooded, some man with a HAM radio contacted MCHS and had everyone rescued. I think one or two people died. Yet - the local head of MCHS was still put under fire and had a criminal investigation launched against him! He was reprimanded. (That is a little too much if you ask me)
The Kursk, as I described in a seperate post has nothing to do with anything so please don't use that card here 
Vic
P.S. My uncle, a colonel, is vice head for the Ministry of Emergency Situations in the Voronezh oblast', he is a strategist (plans rescue operations and stuff) I talked to him on the phone recently, and he agreed with most of what I said about the disorganisation in New Orleans.
By the way - In the 80's when he was stationed in Chadansk, Tuva (In the military, not MCHS - he only got this job a year ago) after leaving an officer's club (a little drunk I bet) he bumped into Shoigu (without noticing - Shoigu is REALLY short) so they had a quick chat about who graduated from where (and ended up that both of them graduated from Sverdlovsk) and it all ended with them exchanging a few fists before being pulled apart  . |
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vorteks
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 571
Location: European Union
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, i m surprised to see this topic on a russian travel forum, but i guess everybody has an opinion, since the USA claim to be a leading global model, when the model fails, it attracts attention and opens a window to criticism. A few days later, a hurricane stroke the eastern chinese shores, and even tho it did more casualties, medias didn t focus on it so much.
I just wonder how fast the federal reaction would have been when the USA had the means of federal welfare policies. Over the last 20 years, "rugged individualism" has been the motto, in the name of cost efficiency, or more precisely tax efficiency. A society choice that is meant maximise growth and consumption at the cost of social protection and collective investments and services. Growth failed to compensate tax cuts and federal just like state budgets decreased subsequently.
All coastal south eastern states know that the hurricane hazard is a serious threat. Why would hurricanes hit every year caraib islands and just stop miraculously at american continental borders? A massive destructive hurricane was as predictable as chicken flu epidemic, the question was not if, but when it would strike.
Whose responsability for the drama?
For the lack of protection equipment against water invasion, certainly the local authorities.
For the lack of means of evacutation of the poorest populations (public transports), both local and federal levels. When the national will is lower taxes, there is no wealth transfer to equalise discrepancies, the poorer the state the worse it s public infrastructures.
For the casualties due to slow reaction, certainly the federal level. Note that the military reaction was way faster than the humanitarian one, simply because military spending didn t suffer from tax cuts, on the contrary, 2001 events gave a good oportunity for militaro energetic lobbies in power to start spending without control.
What strikes foreign humanitarian organisations on the ground is the lack of experience of their american collegues in managing and coordonating distribution of emergency goods. It s more first come first serve than programmed and rationalised. May be because the global experience of USA in global humanitarian crises has always been...military once again.
I just can hope that this crises, which in term of casualties is marginal compared to tolls in in asian tropical area, will lead to positive constructive reactions : involvement in international agreements about global warming management and a growing conciousness of the limits of ultra individualism, which does have a collective cost (prioritarily for the poorest of course). |
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mediashark
Moderator
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 1599
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone remember one of the most destructive hurricanes before Katrina to hit the US?
| Quote: | Hurricane Andrew was the most destructive United States hurricane of record. It blasted its way across south Florida on August 24, 1992. NOAA's National Hurricane Center had a peak gust of 164 mph—measured 130 feet above the ground—while a 177 mph gust was measured at a private home.
Andrew caused 23 deaths in the United States and three more in the Bahamas. The hurricane caused $26.5 billion in damage in the United States, of which $1 billion occurred in Louisiana and the rest in south Florida. The vast majority of the damage in Florida was due to the winds. |
But remember, Andrew's core hit a far more well-off area (Miami), and most damages had been material. For most part the city had been evacuated. Andrew had also been a Cat-5 hurricane, but if I remember when it made landfall it quickly came down to a Cat-4 storm. But they knew it was coming, and they managed to evacuate most of the areas in the path.
The key to hurrican survival is good forecasting, early preperation to minimise material damage and a well-planned evacuation. Clearly the last two had failed. I have many friends in the US National Weather Service and the National Hurricane Center, and the story has almost always been the same. There was sheer disappointment in the handling of Hurricane Katrina among the metorological community. |
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