Way to Russia Community and Forum

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I think the discussion the US is having it its media - newspapers and TV - as well as the congress displays the US democracy at its finest.

There's no question that the initial responce was not sufficient and many errors and blunders were made. In just 2 weeks, there have been tremendous changes made to the whole effort. The head of federal agency resigned. The army moved large contingent in the area to assist. The independent charities like Red Cross collected hundreds of millions of dollars. Vic loves to critisize the US for virtually everything. But if he lived in this country, he would understand that in the US when the mistake of this magnitude is made, it's being scrutinized all the way up. The Senat has now open an official inquiry into the matter and the changes will be made, I am sure. Unlike Russia, where most of the TV is controlled by the government, here we do have free press that made Bush dop everything and run to New Orleands and change the strategy and put pressure on other officials to act quickly. Also, I don't think this even has anything to do with this forum.

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

I have no doubt that the US and Russia can learn from each other in emergency management as both are prone to disasters of often different natures. It would be stupid to say that only one country should learn from the 'better' one. There are different ways of handling emergency situations, but the goal is always the same--rescue as many people as possible, minimize damage, and help rebuild. The most efficient method is often the best, which means flying help from all corners of the world is not always a good idea.

I do not believe Shoigu is infallable, same goes for other emergency management heads. With the shoestring budget he has, he is doing just OK, but nothing great about it either. But anyway you know how hard it is to rescue people when their general attitude to crisis is the fatalistic "we won't make it", "it'll be too late", "there's no hope" etc. which seems so typical of Russians.

cyndy22 · Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject:

It's strange to me that Mediashark is of the opinion that Russians take a fatalistic attiutude. My opinion is quite the opposite. I think Russians are quite resilient and resourceful people.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

I don't see why one should think that Russians are in any way more resourceful or resilient than any other people. Obviously, when people live under opression they get more resilient. If you live in a rich country you get comfortable and you are not as resourceful because the life condition don't require you do be resourceful. But that has nothing to do with being russian or not russian. It has to do with economic system and living conditions.

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

It is interesting to note, however, under some repressive government systems or during times of crisis, some people bucke and break, and others become more resiliant.

And talk about the Russian soul and all that stuff... Rolling Eyes

cyndy22 · Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:35 pm Post subject:

Spice, you said it yourself. Obviously, when people live under opression they get more resilient."

Odabo · Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:16 am Post subject:

mediashark · Moderator Joined: 04 Nov 2004 Posts: 1599

Interesting article:

RIA Novosti
September 12, 2005
Putin and Bush to meet after two hurricanes

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti political commentator Vladimir Simonov.) Vladimir Putin and George Bush, who will meet in Washington on September 16, will be not the same men who had stood side by side in Red Square in Moscow, watching the May 9 parade held to celebrate the 60th anniversary of VE-Day, or who signed the anti-terrorist declaration at the G8 summit in Gleneagles in July.

In the two months since their last meeting, two events have changed the two president's personal and political standing in the eyes of their compatriots and the international community. One was Hurricane Katrina, which has claimed thousands of lives in the United States, and the other was the political tornado in Ukraine.

Katrina razed New Orleans and several other cities in the southern U.S., leaving thousands homeless, unemployed and without hope. It also undermined the ideological foundations of the U.S. as the world's only superpower and nearly the highest reason on Planet Earth.

It showed that the U.S. administration is unable to simultaneously wage wars in order to export American democracy and to fulfill its constitutional duty of ensuring public safety. The geopolitical claims of the Bush administration have clashed with its duty to the homeland.

New Orleans would not have become a giant dead lake if spending on the Iraqi campaign had not forced Washington to cut allocations for the hurricane protection systems of southeastern Louisiana.

The local authorities received only $10.6 million from the federal treasury for that project, instead of the $60 million they had asked for. Four thousands National Guard from Mississippi and 3,000 from Louisiana could have been dispatched to the affected zone to evacuate the people and stop
looters, but they are in Iraq.

The U.S. looks like a giant on legs of clay, with one foot planted in New Orleans and the other in Baghdad. The furious demonstrations at the White
House and the deep dive Bush's rating took to 39% clearly show whom the
Americans blame for the belated reaction to the natural disaster and for the generally incompetent management of the crisis.

Putin, who had been an outspoken opponent of the Iraqi war, will not tell Bush "I told you so" at their meeting in Washington. The Russian president,
who has been noticed to frequent the church, probably saw Katrina as a sign made up above that notions of one's power are ephemeral against Nature and Providence. "I am looking at it and I cannot believe what I see," Putin told a U.S. reporter about Katrina. "We are all vulnerable and should cooperate to help each other."

I can assume that Putin would like to see Bush changed by Katrina, pursuing a less arrogant foreign policy and ready to listen to the collective reason of the international community. America, which Nature has brought down from the high standing of the global lecturer, could show more understanding for the problems and justified interests of other countries, notably Russia's traditional interests in the former Soviet territory.

The widest gap dividing the Kremlin and the White House is the difference in their interpretations of political processes in the former Soviet states. The U.S. administration tends to see "color revolutions" as the triumph of democracy over corrupt regimes. But the Russian leadership sees in these pseudo-revolutions evident signs of anti-constitutional coups planned to redistribute property and infected with the virus of corruption.

Putin repeatedly denounced the attempts at enforced democratization of Ukraine, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, warning about a threat to their
stability. The recent acute political crisis in Ukraine is an argument for the Russian president's stand.

By firing the government of Yuliya Tymoshenko, Ukrainian President Viktor
Yushchenko has admitted to the failure of "orange" ideas. It has become clear that the new Ukrainian leadership was not a tightly knit group of
idealists and patriots, as the people in Kiev's Independence Square had
thought them to be, but a loose group of politicians with different
ideological and business interests. They were united by a desire to satisfy
their political ambitions and, as Tymoshenko said, "to steal from the
country."

Yushchenko assured Bush in a telephone conversation last Saturday that Kiev "will remain committed to its pro-Western policies" despite the change of the government. Unfortunately for the West, Yushchenko has very few allies left to help him prove this commitment.

Tymoshenko said live on television the day before: By firing her, Yushchenko had "in effect destroyed [their] political alliance and the future of the country."

The "orange revolution" has not brought stability or the promised improvements to Ukraine. The West, which financed the revolution, Russia,
which criticized it, and the Ukrainian people, who have become its victims,
have not gained anything other than a regime that is ineffective and no
less corrupt than the one that was overthrown eight months ago. After all,
a street revolt is not an election.

When the two presidents discuss this issue at their Friday summit, George
Bush may listen more closely to Vladimir Putin's opinion that "color revolutions" are a bad road to stability in the post-Soviet territory, which both Russia and the West need after all.

Vic · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject:

Great article mediashark! Thank you. Agree 110%. Not to metion that most of what was in that article is what I have been posting for quite some time now.
Vic

vorteks · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject:

It s a bit strange that a topic started on a natural desaster leads to an analyses of political events in Ukraine. The trend is a bit similar here (France) where medias tend to bring the problem of the slow reaction to a political level. So did the american press...

The reaction was very different in 2001 when political hasards reached 1000s of victims tolls. Global support was then unanymous.

I believe at that time the global community did expect that realising its vulnerability would lead the us government to think more globally and cooperatively, with a more humble stance, but it s just the contrary that happened : more autism, arrogance and self centered interests actions.

2003 events with the disrespect of international institutions brought a lot of distrust and contained anger that materialises today in those critisms.

Katrina will certainly have an impact on Bush popularity amongst us american population. It s symptomatic tho that the republican dynasty will loose its throne on an event on which they have few responsability, while lying to the global community barely impacted its authority internally. It just proves that us americans didnt choose their globally interventionist position and are mainly concerned by local events. There is a big gap between the population concerns and the government actions, as if power was not actually in people s hand.

I m interested to see if this desaster will affect the republican s understanding of global warming management, but if we base pronostics on what happened in 2001, more global cooperation (ratification of international treates) is not to be expected.

pgmatg · Frequent Guest Joined: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 13

For last 20 years smart people warned about looming effects of global warming - air and most importantly water is getting hotter (Mexican Gulf is 4-5 degrees warmer, Caribbean sea - 3*, World's oceans - up 1.5-1.9 degrees), the result is stronger and bigger hurricanes, like last 2 (Katrina & Rita, could these names be less appropriate).
So who is to blame? All of us who use to much electricity, do not properly recycle, but most importantly drive gasoline wasting vehicles. I tried & failed to convince my parents to buy hybrid car, but now they are freaking out about the price of oil (gasoline, heating oil & gas). Personally I haven't driven a car in more then 3 years, I get around on my bicycle or a bus, every 2 weeks I go with them on a shopping run. Still I think the best example is Willie Nelson he tours on a bus that runs on biodiesel (diesel fuel + cooking oil leftovers say from McDonalds), also both of his cars run mixture of low-grade gasoline & vegetable oil, with the prices as they are now he actually better off.
But without a government program to move us as a country to better forms of transportation or at least alternative fuel, and to more ecologically sound electricity generation (solar, wind, bio & thermonuclear), we will never move fast enough to prevent ecological disaster (could be as soon as 10-15 years from now). So Bush & his father & Reagan, along with Republicans (who control all of the branches of the government), as well as a few corporate Democrats are responsible for US not even trying to change thing for the better (not being a part of Kyoto treaty is just one of the crimes of current administration).
It is economically sound investment to spend more on cleaner ways of functioning, because the alternative is starting to get clear to even the most conservatives.
The fact that current Federal government is completely ignorant & inept should be clear by now, but putting inexperienced cronies into the most important posts like head of FEMA (and other positions having to do with our safety) is criminal. The local & state government is partially to blame for not doing enough to save people and protect New Orleans, but it has mostly to do with burocrathy & waste of resources. But their failings were exacerbated by the funds that were cut by the congress for construction & improvement of levies. And now Hurricane Rita has made things even worse for the Gulf coast, and showed that we are still not properly prepared.
So do I think that Bush should resign? Of cause, but it's not going to happen. Should he be impeached, by all means and immediately, but for that we need Democrats in charge of the House, for which we will have to wait another year. Meantime Wolfowitz our face in UN is already planning another war - now with Iran, how long can this country take this abuse from blind, deaf & stupid corporate governing "elite", let's hope we can take another year.

vitalsigns · Lounge Wizard Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 2784

Yes, deleted.

vorteks · Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject:

Denial and revisionism has been the official us american strategy since 2001. The Kyoto Protocol ratificated by most industrialised countries shows that the global warming reality is much more than a fantasy developed by a few grass smoking enviromentalist marginals. Those countries have no economic interest in reducing oil consumption, since they get huge taxes out of it. Their logic goes simply over the short term profit vision embodied by energetic lobbies.

It wouldnt be a problem if this shorsightedness was only affecting the biggest contributor to this meteorologic hazard, but unfortunatly pollution aint know no border. Resolutely globally interventionist against an invisible political threat (fabricated evidences), USA is amazingly passive and isolationist regarding global meteorological evolutions (with zillions of SERIOUS and DOCUMENTED reports provided by REKNOWN and INDEPENDANT INTERNATIONAL meteorologists).

When the law of the strongest covers the voice of the wisest, the interest of the few ignores the well being of vast majority, you know you entered a lethal cycle.

MrSpice · Lounge Wizard Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 3431

While the global warming is a reality that is ercognized by most sceintists that study this problem, there's no indication that the global warming is what caused these 2 hurricanes. We don't know whether without global warming we would have the hurricans that would be weaker or we would have no hurricanes at all. This is a pure speculation. There's a good sense and it's logical to assume that it would be best not to have the problem of global warming. But tying the two problems is simply wrong.

The other thing that people miss when the criticize the US for it's enviromental policy is that they don't realize that most states in the US have very strict enviromental rules. All cars are checked yearly for emissions. Personally, I noticed that the air in most european cities is much more polluted than in the US - and I have been to many European cities.

CHeburashka · Talk Show Host Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 218

Global warming doesn't cause hurricanes or whatever weather phenomenon directly. The average temperature though is an important parameter in our climate models. If it is raised, the extremes in the weather get stronger and vice versa.
((Older climate computermodels would in the long run fall into a state that was called 'white earth model'. A situation in which the whole planet would be covered by snow and ice, mostly reflecting the heat from the sun. This kind of planet would be very 'cool' in the sense that the weather would show little variation. I don't know if they still have this feature in them. Some climatologists used to think that 'White earth' might be a real prossibility.))
The probability that devastating hurricanes will occur does get higher once the temperature in the model is raised. It is a feat that is typical for any chaotic system including these kind of parameters, including climate. There's little or no scientific doubt on that.

It's all statistics, no causality. Though those 2 hurricanes can't be tied to the phenomenon of global warming directly, they will probably add to the statistical evidence of change in climate.

So yes, i agree with vorteks, i agree with MrSpice. Isn't life easy?

Destinations

Moscow Trans-Siberian Golden Ring Irkutsk	St. Petersburg Baikal Lake Ekaterinburg Vladivostok other...


Travel Services

Visa Support Transfers / Taxi	Train Tickets Phone Cards

Way to Russia Community and Forum

If you have a question or want to help someone, please, go to
Way to Russia Forum on our Facebook page.

We also invite you to join our Facebook community, where you can meet other travelers and read interesting news on topics ranging from visa regulations to culture and music.

We are currently moving the old forum to Facebook, so what you see below functions as an archive.

If you have a question, please, post it on
Way to Russia Facebook Discussions Page

Recent Site Activity:

Recent Blog Activity:

	Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Talk Lounge	All times are GMT + 3 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next
Page 3 of 6

Way to Russia Community and Forum

If you have a question or want to help someone, please, go to Way to Russia Forum on our Facebook page. We also invite you to join our Facebook community, where you can meet other travelers and read interesting news on topics ranging from visa regulations to culture and music.

We are currently moving the old forum to Facebook, so what you see below functions as an archive. If you have a question, please, post it on Way to Russia Facebook Discussions Page

Recent Site Activity:

Recent Blog Activity:

If you have a question or want to help someone, please, go to
Way to Russia Forum on our Facebook page.

We also invite you to join our Facebook community, where you can meet other travelers and read interesting news on topics ranging from visa regulations to culture and music.

We are currently moving the old forum to Facebook, so what you see below functions as an archive.

If you have a question, please, post it on
Way to Russia Facebook Discussions Page