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Albert_RTForum
Just Starting
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Ufa
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 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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>>I know that Ekaterinburg, crime was (still is) a big issue. Any comments?
I don't know. |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Ekaterina wrote: | | I mean the same writing about middle class and people who earn 300$ per month there definitely belong to it. The prices in Russia are much lower than in your country and in Ekateriburg they are lower than in Moscow and St.P. so people enjoy their life having 300$. It is my brother who live there and earn 300$ after graduation, he has good two rooms apartment, a car and motorcycles and build a cottage outside of the city. Can you say he is poor? It is the nature of people that they always want to have more. |
Based upon your description Ekaterina, I would most definitely say he is NOT poor. In fact, I'd say he is middle or upper middle class based upon his lifestyle.
And when you say that it is the nature of people to always want more, you are absolutely correct. Truer words have yet to be written.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | Mobile phones are very cheap so your friend doesn't have it not because of problems with money. Iternet access is cheap as well. |
Okay, interesting.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | Another situation is in the countryside where people are really very poor. I was really shocked when we visited our distant relatives who live in a village in Sverdlovsk region. They don't complain and just live traditional style of life like 100 years ago. |
Do they have any opportunity to catch up? Do the rest of the Russian population care? Or is it every person for him- or herself now?
| Ekaterina wrote: | | During Soviet time when we studied at Universities we knew in advance what job we would get after graduation, what money we would earn and it was stable life and stable country. Now nobody can predict if you will make your career or the company you work for will go bankrupt and you will loose your job. Now Russian people live well only because of very high price on oil and I can't imagine what will be here if it goes down because we produce almost nothing. |
In financial circles there is what is known as the Dutch Elm Disease. (For those interested in a definition, see Wikipedia Dutch Elm Disease.) Effectively, countries with natural resources or commodities that are in demand face deindustrialization. Canada is in a similar position. Our oil and gas, gold, silver, and other valuable commodities are doing extremely well. As a consequence, our currency is going up relative to other currencies in the world. Because our currency is going up, our manufacturing is finding it more difficult to compete with a higher Canadian dollar. Thus, we are loosing manufacturing jobs. For Russia, there is pressure on the Ruble because of high value for oil and gas exports. Thus, it's manufacturing will face more difficult circumstances. Russian goods will be more expensive to foreigners to purchase.
Over the past several years, Russia's currency has been correlated with the US dollar. And during the last couple years, the US dollar has been strong, though Canada has been stronger. However, Russia has appreciated against the Euro, which I suspect is more important as there is more trade between Russia and Europe than between Russia and the US. So for Europeans, Russian goods have become more expensive.
There is good news and bad news with Russia relying on the high price of oil. The good news is that high prices are likely to remain for several more years. There simply isn't any more large fields to be developed. There has NOT been a large field discovered in several decades. OPEC is going flat out and is no longer interested in keeping prices low to discourage other countries from bringing on marginal production. Moreover, BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, and China) are all growing rapidly and need more oil. The bad news is the "oil curse." Historically, countries with an excess amount of oil do poorly in the longer term. They often fall prey to corruption and excess. Sometimes the local population beleives that they have a right to a good lifestyle beause of oil and no longer become innovators. Look at Japan during the 80s and 90s. They had to rely on their smarts, innovativeness, and hard work to do well. They have no oil. Or look at Singapore. Now look at Venezuela and Nigeria with their oil wealth.
Longer term, oil doesn't last forever. In less than 50 years, today's fields will largely be completely depleted. Oil reserves typically decline between 3-15% per year.
So Russia must make the most of its wealth now to position itself for the future. While 50 years is a long time away, it will come sooner than we expect. While I expect many of us will be dead by that time, our children (if we have them) will be there to face the consequences. Or put it this way, think back to the 1960s and think of today. There is roughly 50 years. Time flies when you're having fun.
So another set of question to you Ekaterina, you mention your brother enjoys a good lifestyle. And I agree. Is he optimistic about the future, or is he fearful about the future? Does he believe that his lifestyle will improve? Is he saving for his retirement now? Do people in Russia put some money away every year for retirement?
I appreciate your answers Ekaterina.
Entropy |
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Ekaterina
Talk Show Host
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | I know that Ekaterinburg, crime was (still is) a big issue. Any comments? |
It is still one of the most criminal cities in Russia, may be the most criminal. If here in Moscow I often go out at night time and nothing happens, my relatives in Ekaterinburg and their friends are reguarly attacked on the streets when they walk home in the dark.
| Entropy wrote: | | Ekaterina wrote: | | Another situation is in the countryside where people are really very poor. I was really shocked when we visited our distant relatives who live in a village in Sverdlovsk region. They don't complain and just live traditional style of life like 100 years ago. |
Do they have any opportunity to catch up? Do the rest of the Russian population care? Or is it every person for him- or herself now? |
I dont see any opportunities for them. Their children try to move to the cities but old pople will die in poverty. The government do nothing for poor people. Personally we can help some of our relatives and sometimes some people on the streets but we can't feed all poor people.
| Entropy wrote: | | So another set of question to you Ekaterina, you mention your brother enjoys a good lifestyle. And I agree. Is he optimistic about the future, or is he fearful about the future? Does he believe that his lifestyle will improve? Is he saving for his retirement now? Do people in Russia put some money away every year for retirement? |
My brother is not optimistic at all.
We pay 1% tax from our salary to the pension fund, we may choose the fund which will deal with our money and probably increase the amount of our money and we should expect to get this money back when we are on a pension. Actually in this country everything may happen so we don't rely on these funds, we just rely on our bank accounts, the realty we have and our children. |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Albert wrote: | Hello, Entropy.
What for happiness, optimism - you are probably think of Russian Federation using pictures from mass media. |
No, not quite.
Before going on, I want to state up front that I am not interested in suggesting Country A is better than Country B etc. Nor am I interested in denigrating a country. That serves no purpose whatsoever.
What I am interested in is learning. I will provide my viewpoints and why I think the way I do. Then, others can certainly correct or provide an alternative viewpoint. I am definitely interesting in listening and reading, especially from those that live there.
| Albert wrote: | In general it is black colors and you ask - how people can live there at all? Media "washes minds" (hope you understand me:)), whenewer you live. I can say this becouse from time to time read main foreign newspapares.
Somebody happy  , somebody in trouble  |
No, I have friends in Central America. The country is poor and most people there face a challenging life. But my friends consider their country home and would not be interested in leaving. The daugher doesn't understand why people in North America keep chasing the almighty dollar. She thinks there are more important aspects to life, and I agree.
As far as reading newspapers, it is interesting you mention that because my friend from Irkutsk mentions the same thing. I send him articles from prominent papers and we discuss. I suspect he thinks I am one sided and have not properly considered the Russian viewpoint. And I think sometimes that he has not considered the larger picture. A good example of where we disagreed was the recent Russia Ukraine gas crisis. I am not interested in debating that point here.
I also notice a difference in media content from the US and Canada. And I am sure Europe is different yet again. And the media themselves are often different from the average person. So we all have our biases and that influences on how we perceive things.
| Albert wrote: | I suppose, that is not matter of only money or even country.
Example: US is very rich but do you thing they will be Ok if they don't change direction of their politics?
Do you see much potential?
Yes, markets are growing up - real estate, services (I am an IT professional - automatization of business) for example. |
It's interesting, because I think most Russians consider Canada and the US as very similar. Yet many Canadians view themselves very distinct and different. I am probably closer to the American viewpoint than are most Canadians.
I don't want to discuss the American political objectives versus Russian objectives. Then we get into the Afghan war, both Russia's (1980 time frame) and US (although Canada currently leads the military operations in Afghanistan at present, our rotation), the Iraq conflict, the Russian conflict with supplying Iran with nuclear technology, and all the rest of it. We could go back and forth discussing and arguing various points of view, and at the end of the day, we both agree to disagree on many topics and to agree on others. I am not sure that is a fruitful exercise.
One thing, however, that the Americans are very good at is reinventing themselves. If something isn't working, they'll change. They'll adapt. I think that is a strong positive in their favor that will help them weather economic and political storms. Having said that, that does not mean that they are immune from having storms.
Do I think it is only a matter of money? No, money can go very quickly. But money can also be earned very quickly. Only a short while ago, Russia was a mess and was getting loans. Now Russia is prepaying those loans ahead of schedule.
No, I think it is education, which Russia has a strong history of good education, and infrastructure, and entrepreneurialism. In addition, a good legal and political framework are required. Crime must be low, governments must be trusted as not being corrupt, and bureaucracy must be kept to a reasonable level (you can't get rid of it all). There also has to be an equitable distribution of wealth and power. And there must be an opportunity to move from the lower rungs of society to the upper rungs (or levels). In other words, rewards should be based on merits.
You mention that you are involved in the IT sector. From what little I know, Russia does have a strong and growing IT industry.
From your messages, I sense optimism. Yet that is in conflict with Ekaterina's message. She appears much more cautious.
So I find this discussion interesting.
Entropy |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ekaterina wrote: | | It is still one of the most criminal cities in Russia, may be the most criminal. If here in Moscow I often go out at night time and nothing happens, my relatives in Ekaterinburg and their friends are reguarly attacked on the streets when they walk home in the dark. |
That's both interesting and sad. A naive question, doesn't the police help, are are the police part of the problem? Is the crime condition getting better in Ekaterinburg or worse?
My weak understanding is that the mafia exerts a lot of control. Ekaterinburg is ideally situated geographically between Asia and Russia, and thus is a major conduit for drugs.
But if that is all true, then why is Ekaterinburg growing rapidly? And does this crime problem limit opportunities for young professionals?
| Ekaterina wrote: | | I dont see any opportunities for them (rural people in the countryside). Their children try to move to the cities but old pople will die in poverty. The government do nothing for poor people. Personally we can help some of our relatives and sometimes some people on the streets but we can't feed all poor people. |
The adjustment from the Soviet system to this system must seem unfair and very harsh to them.
| Ekaterina wrote: | My brother is not optimistic at all.
We pay 1% tax from our salary to the pension fund, we may choose the fund which will deal with our money and probably increase the amount of our money and we should expect to get this money back when we are on a pension. Actually in this country everything may happen so we don't rely on these funds, we just rely on our bank accounts, the realty we have and our children. |
Why is your brother not optimistic? He appears to lead a good life?
I think most people fear that there will be no pension available. In Europe, Russia, Japan, and North America, the aging population will be a major issue.
It's interesting reading your response compared to Albert's.
I sincerely appreciate both Albert's and your responses.
Entropy |
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Ekaterina
Talk Show Host
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | Ekaterina wrote: | | It is still one of the most criminal cities in Russia, may be the most criminal. If here in Moscow I often go out at night time and nothing happens, my relatives in Ekaterinburg and their friends are reguarly attacked on the streets when they walk home in the dark. |
That's both interesting and sad. A naive question, doesn't the police help, are are the police part of the problem? Is the crime condition getting better in Ekaterinburg or worse? |
I don't know the situation exactly. I left Ekaterinburg 20 years ago and just sometimes visit my parents there. I think the crime condition is stable now, it was better during Soviet epoch.
| Entropy wrote: | My weak understanding is that the mafia exerts a lot of control. Ekaterinburg is ideally situated geographically between Asia and Russia, and thus is a major conduit for drugs.
But if that is all true, then why is Ekaterinburg growing rapidly? And does this crime problem limit opportunities for young professionals? |
We don't face mafia here. It exists but for us it is something what we see in modern movies and just what I know is that there are many drug addicts in Ekaterinburg.
I don't know about rapid growth of Ekaterinburg and don't understand how crime problem may have an influence on opportunities for young people.
| Entropy wrote: | | Ekaterina wrote: | | I dont see any opportunities for them (rural people in the countryside). |
The adjustment from the Soviet system to this system must seem unfair and very harsh to them. |
Definitely.
| Entropy wrote: | | Why is your brother not optimistic? He appears to lead a good life? |
He has difficult nature. Probably he should change his occupation but it is difficult to make a decision. Now he understands that he has not enough to get married and bring up children. |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Ekaterina wrote: | | I don't know the situation exactly. I left Ekaterinburg 20 years ago and just sometimes visit my parents there. I think the crime condition is stable now, it was better during Soviet epoch. |
My impression, though it might be completely wrong, is that crime during the Soviet era was minimal, much like in Cuba. The "police state" forced everyone to behave? Any of this true?
Although the crime situation seems stable, it appears to be a severe problem still?
| Ekaterina wrote: | We don't face mafia here. It exists but for us it is something what we see in modern movies and just what I know is that there are many drug addicts in Ekaterinburg.
I don't know about rapid growth of Ekaterinburg and don't understand how crime problem may have an influence on opportunities for young people. |
Crime hurts the opportunity for young people, and indeed all people, because it discourages business. If you are a young bright professional and you can work in City A with low crime and City B with higher crime, the crime might affect your decision.
Crime also leads to uncertainty and fear, both of which are bad for business. If you look at the inner cities in North America, crime is high, fear is high, and business is low.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | He (Ekaterina's brother) has difficult nature. Probably he should change his occupation but it is difficult to make a decision. Now he understands that he has not enough to get married and bring up children. |
And is that lack of prosperity a leading cause of Russia's low birth rate?
You mentioned that his wage is about $300 month. Is that wage typical for most professions? I recall our discussion that $300 in Russia goes much further than it does here. So $300 still leads to a reasonable middle class life, though it can be challenging for parents to raise their children.
You mention that he should change his occupation. What should he change it to?
Is there much of a "trickle down" effect from oil? In other words, is everyone benefiting from Russia's oil wealth, or just the fortunate few?
----
As I read your responses, I react and ask different questions. You are very helpful in providing me with a picture of today's Russia. I hope to go some day and see for myself.
Thank you and I look forward to your responses.
Entropy |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy, Ekaterina is still single... |
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Ekaterina
Talk Show Host
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | My impression, though it might be completely wrong, is that crime during the Soviet era was minimal, much like in Cuba. The "police state" forced everyone to behave? Any of this true? |
No, we had good moral principles, common in the whole country. The police control now is much stronger than in Soviet era. I can't compare it with Cuba, have never been there.
| Entropy wrote: | | Although the crime situation seems stable, it appears to be a severe problem still |
Yes
| Entropy wrote: | | Ekaterina wrote: | | He (Ekaterina's brother) has difficult nature. Probably he should change his occupation but it is difficult to make a decision. Now he understands that he has not enough to get married and bring up children. |
And is that lack of prosperity a leading cause of Russia's low birth rate? |
Yes
| Entropy wrote: | | You mentioned that his wage is about $300 month. Is that wage typical for most professions? I recall our discussion that $300 in Russia goes much further than it does here. So $300 still leads to a reasonable middle class life, though it can be challenging for parents to raise their children. |
Teachers in public schools and doctors in public clinics earn less, managers in private companies earn more. 300$ is enough for one person to enjoy the life and not enough for three.
| Entropy wrote: | | You mention that he should change his occupation. What should he change it to? |
He may get a position in one of representatives of foreign companies, promote sales of something like Coca Cola and earn 500$ for the first time and probably have the opportunity of advance.
| Entropy wrote: | | Is there much of a "trickle down" effect from oil? In other words, is everyone benefiting from Russia's oil wealth, or just the fortunate few? |
I consider that everyone who live well here benefits from oil.
| Entropy wrote: | | As I read your responses, I react and ask different questions. You are very helpful in providing me with a picture of today's Russia. I hope to go some day and see for myself. |
It is just my point of view and my impression. Different people see different things here. For visitors it usually depends on the purpose of their visit and their mood. Some Americans and Canadians come here to compare our country and our style of living with their and they think in advance that their country and themselves are much better so they can't see anything good here. The others come here to share our style of living and try to understand and they are surprised that we are happy here in spite of the difficulties and they like the country and our spirit. |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| vitalsigns wrote: | | Entropy, Ekaterina is still single... |
vitalsigns, Ekaterina can do better. But I do appreciate her assistance with my questions.
Entropy |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of crime and a police state...
| Ekaterina wrote: | | No, we had good moral principles, common in the whole country. The police control now is much stronger than in Soviet era. I can't compare it with Cuba, have never been there. |
Interesting. I had thought people were frustrated under the previous system where people lacked civil rights and the ability to express themselves. I had thought that in order to supress people's ambitions, a strong state control was required.
Are people appreciative of their new civil rights now? Or do they see the trade-off of increased civil rights not worth the uncertainty?
In talking with my friend from Irkutsk, he mentioned that the old Soviet system was rotting from within and was due to collapse soon. His comments were in response to my question if he thought that, if the current high oil prices that exist now existed in the 1980-2000 time frame, would the Soviet regime still exist. He didn't see any connection. My response was that high oil prices allows regimes to stay in power because it supplies those regimes with hard currency.
So I am curious as how Russian people view the changes.
On the topic of wages....
| Ekaterina wrote: | Teachers in public schools and doctors in public clinics earn less, managers in private companies earn more. 300$ is enough for one person to enjoy the life and not enough for three.
...
He (Ekaterina's brother) may get a position in one of representatives of foreign companies, promote sales of something like Coca Cola and earn 500$ for the first time and probably have the opportunity of advance. |
Do Russian people see themselves as hostage to foreign companies, notably American companies. Is there a resentment towards the US because of their economic strength?
On the topic of "trickle down" from oil wealth...
| Ekaterina wrote: | I consider that everyone who live well here benefits from oil.
...
It is just my point of view and my impression. Different people see different things here. For visitors it usually depends on the purpose of their visit and their mood. Some Americans and Canadians come here to compare our country and our style of living with their and they think in advance that their country and themselves are much better so they can't see anything good here. The others come here to share our style of living and try to understand and they are surprised that we are happy here in spite of the difficulties and they like the country and our spirit. |
People should never judge others by their wealth or lack of wealth. My lifestyle in Canada is the result that my great grandparents and grandparents fled Ukraine and Poland. I had no choice in the matter. I merely benefitted from their decision, or desperation.
In my travels in Central America, I stayed with a family to learn Spanish for a month per year over a few years. I can honestly say that they are some of the richest people I know, despite not having a lot of money. They are not poor, but they don't have the material wealth that the average American possess. However, what they lack in material wealth they more than make up for in love and happiness. They are truly wonderful people.
I hope Canadians are polite while they are in Russia (and elsewhere). We tend to be a polite and respectful people. Not being a superpower, we tend not to exert our strength on the international stage, because we don't possess much power. Our only strength is our moral suasion.
Entropy |
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Ekaterina
Talk Show Host
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | Interesting. I had thought people were frustrated under the previous system where people lacked civil rights and the ability to express themselves. I had thought that in order to supress people's ambitions, a strong state control was required.
Are people appreciative of their new civil rights now? Or do they see the trade-off of increased civil rights not worth the uncertainty? |
I don't understand what rights we lacked? I feel we had much more abilities to express ourselves than now. That is why so many people like vitalsigns couldn't find themselves here and emigrated to the West. It is really difficult for young people to cope with their life now when the country doesn't show them the direction and everything here is in a mess.
| Entropy wrote: | | Do Russian people see themselves as hostage to foreign companies, notably American companies. Is there a resentment towards the US because of their economic strength? |
We don't see ourselves as hostage, it is just an opportunity to earn more money.
| Entropy wrote: | | I hope Canadians are polite while they are in Russia (and elsewhere). We tend to be a polite and respectful people. |
Yes, I noticed that Canadians think it about themselves. |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: |
vitalsigns, Ekaterina can do better. But I do appreciate her assistance with my questions.
Entropy |
Well, you can start as friends. She's educated and helpful. You are abroad and rich. Who knows where it can go from here... |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Ekaterina wrote: | | I don't understand what rights we lacked? I feel we had much more abilities to express ourselves than now. That is why so many people like vitalsigns couldn't find themselves here and emigrated to the West. It is really difficult for young people to cope with their life now when the country doesn't show them the direction and everything here is in a mess. |
Because I was not there then and am not there now, I can only make guesses, and then, of course, you can correct me.
My guess is that prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, Russians could not travel easily to foreign countries. For example, many Jews left Russia for Israel, and now many Russians have gone to the US and elsewhere. Under the Soviet system, that would not be allowed.
I used to work in Northern Canada, and one of my coworkers had escaped from Czechoslovakia. He would not have needed to escape if he had been free.
How about the ability to criticize the government in the press? Although I have read that the government still exerts considerable influence over the press.
How about the ability to organize and demonstrate against whatever? Or the ability to elect your own government?
One comment I found interesting, "It is really difficult for young people to cope with their life now when the country doesn't show them the direction..."
Is that the government's role? Or does that responsibility fall to the individual?
Under Soviet rule, when did you learn your future career? Could you switch careers easily?
| Ekaterina wrote: | | We don't see ourselves as hostage, it is just an opportunity to earn more money. |
But doesn't that money buy you additional freedoms or options to choose as how you want to lead your life?
I suspect before, you could not import many consumer goods from the West? Now you can. In fact, your PC that you are currently using contains imported chips. The money and ability to interact with people beyond FSU countries has enriched your life, no?
My guess is that before everyone had a more or less reasonable life, and there was more certainty. Nobody did without, and only a few political people did really well.
That said, I don't think the old system could continue forever. I believe computer and other technologies were leaving the Soviet system further behind. It would be very difficult for the Russians with a 150 million people to have a completely insular economy. The rest of the world is engaged in freer trade. Countries either have to join or be left behind. It seems to me that Russia had very little choice.
That is not to say Russia had no technology. Of course it did and does. One only has to look at its space and military programs. But I believe it would be hard to have a ringfence around the country and be able to maintain its status quo.
As I read my writing, it seems that I am arguing with you. I am not. Rather, I am challenging your writing to understand better.
In reading your comments, I am saddened. If your writing is indicative of how a substantial portion of Russians feel, then I know conditions are even worse for some of the other FSU countries. I know conditions are horrendous in Poland. Yet, many Ukrainian people go to Poland because it is better than the Ukraine for work opportunities. I would have to think that with Russia's abundance in natural resources, it is comparitively well off.
An interesting discussion.
Entropy |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| It's funny how people come to supposedly ask questions who actually know more about the topic than those who respond to them. Well, the egos are tickled, so I guess it's good. |
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