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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:33 am Post subject: |
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So? |
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spartacus
Frequent Guest
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Mogsfan"]Oh yeah, I just wanted to add, why even go to war in the first place. Why do so many people tolerate this? The U.S. elected a President who went to war and it was proven it was highly unjustified and illegal (according to International Law) but he was elected a 2nd time. Even by what we normally accept as conditions warranting it, by those standards, why was it accepted in the U.S. because it was based on false conditions.
I don't want to open a can of worms but I hope that there's a lot of Russians out there that disagree with the policy against Chechnya. I think the Chechen rebels are just as bad as the Islamic terrorists but these aren't even traditional wars. Not anymore. The terrorists expect to be attacked and want it.[/quote
It was not proven unjustified and illegal. Saddam violated the 1991 truce, therefore further action against him was justified. The fact that the French, Canadians, Germans, Russians and even the UN were profiting by skimming the oil-for-food program makes their objections worthless. He also violated about 12 UN resolutions between 1991 and the start of the war.
The Cheese eating surrender monkeys (french) have never put it up to the UN for a vote to authorize their action in the Ivory Coast. They simply moved in to protect their cynical economic interests. Yet there is no world outcry, while the crybabies come out of the woodwork to critisize the US. |
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Atomcat
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:21 am Post subject: Hey |
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| Spartacus, you should edit your response. I think you can insult more nationalities. |
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zinku120
Frequent Guest
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 22
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| spartacus wrote: | | The Cheese eating surrender monkeys (french) have never put it up to the UN for a vote to authorize their action in the Ivory Coast. They simply moved in to protect their cynical economic interests. Yet there is no world outcry, while the crybabies come out of the woodwork to critisize the US. |
check United Nations Security Council Resolution 1464 on Ivory Coast . it's on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2728409.stm
among other sites.
there's no other need to reply to illiterate republicans.
i guess, i should be using republicans, rather than americans, when i criticise the country. there're (sadly, less than) half the population who can see beyond their nose. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | i guess, i should be using republicans, rather than americans, when i criticise the country. |
IMHO, the two major American parties are virtually the same.
| Quote: | | It was not proven unjustified and illegal. Saddam violated the 1991 truce, |
It wasn't? Bush et al. swore that Saddam had WMD. None were found. Bush et al. said that Saddam had ties to "Al Qaeda." There has not been one shed of proof. Now, it's all about... 'oh, well, we did it to fight terrorism... and free the Iraqi people.." Give me a break. But, this is going on a tangent without much relating to Russia. I'm not sure if any Russians here are interested in this topic but I tried to suggest some topics that may be related?
Anyway, there is a lot of info out there regarding the Bush-Saddam-Iraq scenario and I'm not talking about Mr. Moore's film. I'm talking about alternative media sources and just the facts which should be enough for any reasonable person. The claimed justification for war don't add up. I bring up the corruption, lies, deceit, and war-mongering because it is symptomatic of other political regimes. |
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bernhard_riemann
Frequent Guest
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone wish to talk about Russia? |
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brandalpayne11
Talk Show Host
Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 245
Location: NC, US
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: ! |
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I am going to refference the UN a few times, but I want it absolutely clear, I do not recognize the UN as "The last word in the world," as it were, and as a little insight into the American psyche', America as a whole also does not.
The UN had to make up 12 new resolutions in the 12 years following the gulf war, why; im glad you ask, because the original agreement with the UN was to get rid of WMD & "prove so".
Now since so many of u in this forum are so brushed up on intl. law i say this, what good is a law if it is not enforced? According to the UN he broke EVERY resolution that they put upon him.
The only reason that he got away with it for so long is a few so called "heavy hitters" in the UN were making a ton of loot with Sadaam, which also i might add is against the intl. law that so many in this forum are so proud of. 
One final thing we have found WMD! IN the form of serun & mustard gas, you say "so what" to which I say that is enough chemical agents to KILL a quarter million people. Now if that is not WMD thenI don't know what is.
peace |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Anyone wish to talk about Russia? |
Yes. I would be interested in finding a web page that ilustrates the makeup of the State Duma, the upper and lower houses of Parliament. I was curious what the party numbers are, that is, how the concentration of power and influence is. Preferably, I would like to have it in English but if a Russian could translate one to English, it would be greatly appreciated.
I read that the upperhouse is dominated by parties that are very Pro-Kremlin but I'm not too sure about the lower.
I would like to ponder this idea to Russians: I think Russian politics is similar to American in a way. I suspect the Putin and similar clans outspend the other parties except the difference may be that they actually have even more of a hand in what the media writes or presents than the American media. Money and control play a part in American media (e.g. the media corporations make more money covering a Republican or Democrat than if they covered an independent say) while in Russia, the dominating parties in Russia use more direct and authoritarian domination of the media. I am guessing here. Anyone who wishes to comment on this, please do so. I don't think enough westerners care enough about the way another country's government works. That is, they are unaware of the major players. They just comment on the World Leaders but they lack any sort of knowledge or insight about the dynamics in which that leader was able to come to power. I can understand that regarding the politicians in my country but not someplace like Russia.
Is that sufficient Russian content for you?  |
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Pavol
Just Starting
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject: Socialist |
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I used to live in a socialist country (Czechoslovakia). What can I say - it sucked. And I was NEVER persecuted in any way by communist or anyone else. When I was born the persecution was already in the past (but yes, there was a persecution and theater-like trials that cost many lives) but still, there was a sense of fear everywhere. Not that you would fear for your life, you just felt that you had to watch yourself all the time. What you did and what you said effected not only you, but also your family and often your friends as well. To be proclaimed "enemy of the state/party" meant that you and most likely neither your children would get higher education; it meant to work only a manual labor (and you had to work. Working was mandatory, that's why there was no unemployement); it also meant to be watched most of the time. If you followed the party or even better, just shut up, you were guaranteed some social security. If you tried to show some initiative, even totally non-political, you were setting yourself up to be pushed down. Don't stick your head up or you'll lose it was one of the saying. Another interesting saying was - Not stealing from the state (i.e. company you worked for) is like stealing from your family. And unfortunately this mentality is still present. I lived under a socialist regime and now I am in the States. And I'd never go back to any socialist or communist oriented regimes no matter what country. I guess the main difference between the capitalist and socialist coutries is the opprotunity you have/don't have. Of course even here it is often who you know that matters rather than what you know but still it is way better than I remember from socialism. Most visitors who visited any Eastern European country would tell you that people look very depressed. That's how they look before too. I honestly believe it was the system who created this faceless mass of people who did have the basic social security but who were lacking everything else. The carelessness was everywhere around you as well as inside of you. You didn't care about other people, you didn't care about other's property, you didn't even care about your country. You just didn't want to get involved into anything. You had what you had and you knew that was it. There was no reason trying to work harder or more efficiently - the result was the same, no matter what. The empty stores and long lines for bannanas or tolilet paper were just the result of planning economy (everything was planned for 5 years, and the plan was strictly followed) and beaten dignity that created masses who silently accept anything as long as they have their piece of bread.... BTW, people living in the cities are way less likely to miss socialism than people living in the villages. Also younger people reject the idea of socialism way more than older people.
Oh, and BTW, Stalin was vieved as an evil dictator even by the communist and by the late 80's (still during socialism) we were even tought about him at the way he is described today - as a mass murderer. So I guess those statistic that tell you about all those millions of dead are pretty accurate if communist themselves approved them to be tought at schools. Yes, it is true that lot of remarkable things were built but those things were built also in any other developed country in the world. The difference was that unlike in socialism, after these things were built you still had enough resources to built something else. So to all those communist wannabes - either you never lived in a socialist country or you just have no idea what you are talking about. But my recommendation is to have a closer look at North Korea. If you like what you see, than......well, you fill up the space. |
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AliceFromMoscow
WayToRussified
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 411
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Pavol you dont have any patriotic feelings... this is awful...
No matter how bad or poor a country is, its your motherland.. !!!!!!
this is disgusting... to speak in such way of your own home! |
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Pavol
Just Starting
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: Patriotic feelings? |
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| You're wrong, I miss my home and friends terribly. I just don't miss the system. And that it wasn't like that before? You were not supposed to be a patriot to your country but to the party. And that stopped in 1968 when Russian army marched through the country and occupied Czechoslovakia for 30 years. That was the time when most people saw that party betrayed the country and that was the time when people just stopped caring. The patriotic feelings we were tought wasn't to love your country but the party, and in fact, the motto of those days education was "With CCCP always and for ever". The people loved the country before but saw that it was the party that sold it without a fight. So the patriotic feelings were exchanged by anger, hate and frustration towards everything that party represented and Czechoslovak Socialist Republic was one of them. People didn't care for this country they wanted their own country, the one they once had. The country we were living was forced to us so there was no special attachement and that's why so many people emmigrated. People loved their motherland but not this artifficialy created country that didn't even belong to us. How many people from Soviet Republics actually loved CCCP? I'm sure they loved their countries but never felt obligated to serve to CCCP since this was artifficialy made country that simply forced smaller republic into the union they never even wanted. I hope you understand what I mean. If you don't than just keep hating me. I'll manage. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Pavol, I think you present your perspective well. It's completely understandable. It is rather foolish to blindly support your country or government. Especially, when there is little reason to. Sorry, Alice but I humbly disagree with your p.o.v.
Pavol, what do you think of Czech leaders Vaclav Havel and Vaclav Klaus? I'm more familar with the former and as far as I know, he's well received or respected by the West. But, I'm not sure how someone from the Czech Republic or the Slovak Republic would view him/them.
I don't wish to offend Alice but if many Russians have the view that they can't "be against" or criticize their own country and government then it's going to be a long period of time before positive changes come about.
I think pride and nationalism is okay until a point. But, it has the potential to tolerate too much. Imho, Russia and the other Eastern European states are in their predicament because of their version of communism and socialism. It is not so much the elimination of initiative, creativity or individuality that was a prelude to the horrible conditions but that it allowed and fostered corruption and unethical control of the people. The American or Western versions of capitalism has its own flaws and I won't defend them either. But, if we isolate the topic to communism/socialism/Eastern Europe, there is a pattern that no sane person can dispute. |
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DennisF
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:47 am Post subject: Russian government |
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| I too would like to see some discussion pertaining to the the Russian government. Especially from Russian people. Does anyone have any feelings about how the recent changes instituted by Putin might change things. I have been reading several online newspapers (in English) over the last several months and there seems to be quite open discussion of this matter. I have been learning about Russian culture and I am attempting to learn the Russian language (very different from english but also very logical). I have found this site to be very informative and entertaining. I compliment the site administration for a job well done! DennisF |
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Atomcat
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: Differences |
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| Americans love talking politiics and Russians hate talking politics. If you happen to notice that all the political posts are not from Russians. Dennis, you are a country that has free speech and reporters are not shot in the street. You will not get a great honest response. You will have gain a lot of trust for this to happen. No offence. |
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spartacus
Frequent Guest
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| This latest point of view was very good. I like how he said he loved what his country should have been. When people like me say that the US is the greatest country in the world, you may want to figure out if they are conservative. Conservatives like me think of what the country is SUPPOSED to be, and it is the ideal that we love and work to restore. The ideal as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constutution is pretty hard to beat, even if sometimes the current climate can be not so great. When we say we love the US, it is the basic system that we love. If Czech people got themselves a constitution like ours, and were working to impliment it, I would think of moving there if I saw hope that they would not stray as far as we have. |
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