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Pavol
Just Starting
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:46 am Post subject: To Mogsfan |
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Vaclav Havel was more admired abroad than home. You see, he was a representative of everything that stood against communism and for that he was very popular. However later on he started to make too many compromises. Suddenly many communists were proclaimed "not so bad" and many of them still hold positions in the government. Vaclav Klaus, as far as I know was never a communist but he was an author of several articles that he wrote during a communism in which he very admired the success of socialism-driven economy. And then, after the revolution, he changed his position dramatically when he saw a possibility of a nice a cozy spot in the politics. And there are many more people like him in both Czech and Slovak republics (and in Russia too, I bet). You see, statistics show that many people miss socialism but what they do not realize is that most people sitting in the parliament have a comminist past, many of them were even active communists, and some of them used to hold a powerful position within the party (i.e. Slovak second president). The same situation is in Russia, just look where Putin is comming from. It is funny to watch these people who used to be as far left as can be to become hard-line capitalists..... No wonder many people say that socialism was better than democracy, but what they do not realize is that they never lived in real democracy as the country is still governed by ex-communist and former secret police officers. Sure the political process became more democratic (you can speak up; there are many parties - Slovakia has over 100 parties and only 5 mil people!) but the thinking remained. The wild privatization when almost all firms and companies that had some value were sold to foreign entities made the socialist sentiment even greater. And the organized corruption that reaches the highest posts in the goverment became almost standard how people view politicians. And being said that we live in democracy, people often tie these negatives with the actual democracy. You see, before people in power had to share their pie and now they compete for it. The result is a lot mess that surficed out because they all are trying to show the other guy as a criminal when in fact in most cases both accuser and accused one are criminals. There was a corruption before too but not this visible and not even that much. And people see that and of course automatically assume that socialism was better than democracy we have now. But what we have now is a post-socialist system that on one hand brought the country to EU and NATO and created free market and on the other hand created millionairs out of the same people who brought the country in the missery and poor out of people who worked hard all their lives. I talked to some Russians and they all confirmed that corruption is a great problem in Russia too and in some former Soviet countries (such as Belarus) the corruption reached almost unimaginable levels. I believe that if not for corruption the situation in Estern Europe would be far better and socialist sentiment far smaller. But, what do you expect from spineless ex-communists trying to run a democracy.
PS: Someone said that Russians don't like to talk about politics. Well, my experience is rather different. They love to talk about politics but mostly about the American ones..... |
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brandalpayne11
Talk Show Host
Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 245
Location: NC, US
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:37 am Post subject: Never |
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I never in my wildest dreams thought my simple little post would generate such a response. 
I would like to thank all persons who have presented their points of view with such brilliant prose.
uday, how's it goin? |
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VictoR-Tdot
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Back to the Stalin topic...just want to state my opinion of him.
First of all, before the war he executed some of the top military leaders russia had. In total 30,000 members of the armed forces were executed including fifty per cent of all army officers (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSstalin.htm).
Second, it was a police state (read "1984", and although it's fiction and is exagerated, you will get the picture) so anyone could go and "tell" on someone....and that person would get sent to gulags or executed with the snap of Stalin's finger. Not to mention the minorities.
"2.4M sent to Gulag; 1.9M freed." , a million repatriated POW killed(1943-1947), 16-18 million non-war dead during the war. (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm scroll down to Second world war...The deaths are broken down by guilt...look under Stalin..site lists several sources for each stat)
Also before Germany attacked Russia, Stalin recieved reports from his spies that Germany was gathering up their forces near the border and that they were planning to invade....but Stalin didn't believe them because he thought Hitler was his friend and didn't do anything to prepare for the war until it was too late.
(Both my grandparents fought for USSR in the war and this last bit my granddad told me, and he's done research on the topic and wrote some articles about it)
So in my opinion Stalin was as bad as Hitler....and whatever developments USSR made during his leadership doesn't take away the fact that he was a mass murderer. (Germany's economy grew under Hitler's leadership as well.)
As for the Allies....they didn't land troups in western Europe until the spring of 1944. Where were they before this?....they waited till 1944 when germany was already weakened ...then they landed mainly because they were worried that the USSR would spread communism by capturing back everything germany did. They could have done a lot more. |
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mountaingirl
Frequent Guest
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Good response Spartacus. I totally agree with you. I am proud to be an American in the sense of what she stood for, for the freedoms she gives me, and what the Constitution stands for. But right now, I am pretty well disgusted with the state things are in around here. And I know whos fault it is.....Ours for ever allowing it to get this way. But I hope people will not judge AmeriCANS because of the government. |
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Atomcat
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:14 pm Post subject: Political Debate |
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| Quote: | | Good response Spartacus. I totally agree with you. I am proud to be an American in the sense of what she stood for, for the freedoms she gives me, and what the Constitution stands for. But right now, I am pretty well disgusted with the state things are in around here. And I know whos fault it is.....Ours for ever allowing it to get this way. But I hope people will not judge AmeriCANS because of the government. |
Then how do you fix such a system?
Original democracy was based on EDUCATED people voting. USA styled democracy is based on everyone voting. They are having the problems around the world including Russia in which uninformed voters are allowed to choose the government. How can you be allowed to vote when you know nothing about the candidates? Remember voting is a privledge, not a right. Thus a voter should be quized on his/her ballot to see if she understand the basic differences between the parties. If the voter is coming uninformed, then can have a chance to read the material to make an educate decision at the voting area. |
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Mogsfan
WayToRussified
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Then how do you fix such a system?
Original democracy was based on EDUCATED people voting. USA styled democracy is based on everyone voting. They are having the problems around the world including Russia in which uninformed voters are allowed to choose the government. How can you be allowed to vote when you know nothing about the candidates? Remember voting is a privledge, not a right. Thus a voter should be quized on his/her ballot to see if she understand the basic differences between the parties. If the voter is coming uninformed, then can have a chance to read the material to make an educate decision at the voting area. |
I think that is well said, Atomcat. That is the dilemma right there. I have often thought some sort of questionnaire system like the one you propsed would be an idea. Without thinking too much about it, I would be inclined to agree with such a system. However, the politicians would never go for it because they rely on an uneducated selfish populace to obtain their votes. Democracy or as much as one can surmise it exists, relies on an educated and thinking population or it just won't work. "Work" might not be the best word. It won't function as well as it could basically. The other requirement is that people HAVE TO CARE and desire to be informed. They must take initiative in being informed and take great lengths to obtain multiple sources of information. That's because there is a tendency in human nature (or so it seems) for people to become corrupt or commit unethical deeds. Sellfishness permeates society. So, people have to be self-aware and consider evertyhing as they search for info. I don't trust the mainstream media so I always search for alternative media and sources before deciding on some topic or issue. Even then, I try to keep an open mind and not be too rigid in my assessments. However, with some topics and issues, I have conclusions in stone if I find it more than justified. That's only after looking at as many sources and alleged facts as possible.
America's so-called democracy is not 'working' because these requirements are not there. Russia's "democracy" won't work (at least not yet) because those conditions aren't there but also because it is apparent they are apathetic, oblivious to them or refuse to believe in their importance or necessity. Well, imho, of course.
The concept of democracy is mistakenly assumed to be one that is perfect which it is not. I don't even think such a system could achieve perfection or do what it intends 100% of the time. But, it is probably the best out there out of the options. But, it can be horribly flawed when people neglect the conditions necessary for it to be any benefit to society as a whole .
Oh, I almost forgot (I had to edit): Even if one does all this, that doesn't mean one will have good choices. No. In fact, you might end up concluding that you're still screwed. (There may be a lack of political choice or all the choices may .... suck!). Fulfilling all the conditions just improves the prospects, that's all. But, that's important in itself. |
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mountaingirl
Frequent Guest
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmmm...another good point |
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VictoR-Tdot
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| They should also test the president....Bush would fail for sure. |
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spartacus
Frequent Guest
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: |
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Nice one victor. Yet another insult aimed at Bush's IQ based on what? Your own conviction that you are a genius? He has a BS from Yale, a MBA from Harvard, Was a fighter pilot, and ran a successful baseball team before becoming a very popular governer.
What makes you capable of judging his education or intelligence? The smug superiority front that you use to mask your feelings of inferiority is slipping!!! |
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mountaingirl
Frequent Guest
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, but all that says nothing about his COMMON SENSE! |
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spartacus
Frequent Guest
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| He rules on common sense. He knows that the craphole middle east has too much money and too little freedom, hence the misery and terrorism that is there and that comes from there. He also knows that less taxes = good for people. I'd say he has alot of common sense. Heck, he even showed that when he grabbed his security guy by the collar and told the Chilean security people "He's with me". |
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uday
WayToRussified
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| spartacus wrote: | | Nice one victor. Yet another insult aimed at Bush's IQ based on what? Your own conviction that you are a genius? He has a BS from Yale, a MBA from Harvard, |
Proof that money can buy you anything ini america... including an ivy league education.
| spartacus wrote: |
Was a fighter pilot |
This made me fall out of my seat laughing 
I nominate this for the funniest post ever! Even funnier is the fact spartatwat is dead serious. Care to explain to the forum which war bush faught in?
| spartacus wrote: |
What makes you capable of judging his education or intelligence? The smug superiority front that you use to mask your feelings of inferiority is slipping!!! |
Well, seeing as how your president, with is mba and all, doesn't even know that its called the internet (NOT internets) and words like 'misunderestimate' aren't really words in the English language, I think anyone with a grade 8 education is superior in intillect over georgie. |
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Randy
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Texas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: Stalin, America, Democrocy |
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I have been sitting back watching how these subjects unfold. Some post enlighten me, some make me laugh, some make me sad. Then there are some that are just plain ignorant. I've read the post lambasting President Bush, our internal and foreign policies, the voting system, and even in another place on this message board, people are even putting down our automobiles, and the people who make them. One thing that makes me laugh is that some of the lambasting is done by people who are non-citizens living in another country, who has the same kind of system.
To those who think Senator Kerry would have been a better president, well, that is all just a theory. In this case the voting system worked well. For all the foreigners who disagree, well, it isn't our purpose in life to make you happy by setting our standards according to your wishes, especially since you have no original constructive idea's on how to make it better. As a combat disabled American, I don't agree with all of President Bush's policies either, but I would rather have him as president than Kerry. Also I still consider America a better place to live, than Canada, France, Germany, or even Russia. The reason I can say that is because I have lived at one time on most every continent, and will always return to America. When I hear people saying unkind words about my country I sort of just chuckle. Apparantly these people forget that America is totally made up of foreigners who brought their cultures, languages, political beliefs, and religions here from every country in the world. Even though people born here call themselves Americans, which they are, the only true ones are the Native American Indians.
I hear people talk about democrocy, and the ignorant people who probably shouldn't be able to vote because they know nothing of the canidates. Of course, there are many who don't know a lot about the canidate they are voting for, it's no different in Canada, or anywhere else. Democrocy is still tradding along there, but it is difficult for the Russian's sometimes. At one time, while I was in St.Pete during elections there were 17 political parties. Now, you tell me how you could know who to vote for. I believe that here in the States we American's are more informed about our canidates than most other countries.
Our American system may be flawed, and maybe it is not perfect, but it sure isn't broken. I don't see any other systems from other countries that have anything to brag about either. And for those who think American cars are peices of junk, made by lazy workers, well, my Chevy pickup was made in Canada.
I stiil have more to say in reserve. |
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spartacus
Frequent Guest
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Bush flew the F-102 fighter, but not in a war. However,the subject is intelligence, and dummies don't pass fighter pilot school.
Why don't you tell us what you have accomplished uday? We already know you are a moron, but are you a distinguished one? |
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uday
WayToRussified
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| spartacus wrote: | Bush flew the F-102 fighter, but not in a war. However,the subject is intelligence, and dummies don't pass fighter pilot school.
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Hard to be considered a 'fighter pilot' if you didn't do any fighting. The fact you think bush is intelligent speaks volumes about your own intellect level |
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