| Author |
Message |
darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 427
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: |
 |
|
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4121
Although you may not think so from reading the above link, this book, among other things, discusses some plausible reasons for the demographic decline of Europe - and Russia. Yes, many European nations have the same problem of population birth rate decline.
So, why do the wealthier Western European nations ALSO have precipitously low birth replacement rates of between 1.2 and 1.5? So, it can't be all down to economic reasons - Russia's low birth rate. Although, of cause economic stability is a big consideration.
The Canadian author speaks much about the "socialist welfare state", whether it be Western democratic European style, or the pre-1991 Communist Russian type socialism as root causes:
ie. Instead of a go forth and multiply mentality/survival instinct (no (matter what the circumstances!), socialist welfare states adopted a "cradle-to-the-grave" system where Big Government has to set the ideal conditions for breeding. Yes, I know this sounds way too deep and possibly weird! 
Of course I don't have all the answers. But, this book is a very interesting take on demographics. Well worth a read, especially if you also like a laugh-a-minute when reading about such serious matters!
(Sorry if the above URL link's "review" comment of the Soviet menace to Cold War Western Europe is offensive to my Russian friends. One must remember at least the Soviet peoples felt threatened by the USA too, and perhaps that politicians on both sides often didn't exactly discourage these ideas). |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 427
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting and scary posts Rick, Surfguy, Overseas_Expat, Nikir, Paul, etc.
Thanks for the information. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick
Moderator
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 854
Location: Касабланка
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the article, but I must say that I would find it hard to take anyone seriously who calls climate change a 'pseudo-problem' and seems to not address issues like individualization, women's emancipation, the advance of effective birth control.
For the case of Russia, his story won't hold anymore. There is not much of a welfare state in the country.
These days individuals are empowered to choose how many children they have and women can choose between more kids or more of a career. These are individual choices that help boost our ecconomies, but can be in conflict with the aims of the collective to keep the population pyramid stable.
Many of the countries that have these problems right now, will probably have a high degree in women's emancipation if you take a closer look at it. I won't condemn that. For me it is simply the way in which the individual overpowers his biological organism. There are plenty others around on this planet to take care of the breeding work. In the end, their children will solve our problem.
I would be more interested to read something of a biologist actually, instead of a journalist. For instance about the effects hat a growing population within a fixed area has on the birth rate of a species. (you can test this yourself on a fish tank, but it seems to work quite well if you compare rural to urbanized areas.) Fact is that there are plenty humans around on this planet and their total number won't just shrink. For a population biologist this debate on change in birth rate/death rate is probably one about a pseudo-issue...
(I see that altogether my post is quite a mixture, but I guess that's also what I intended: to bring up what springs to the mind.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nikir
Frequent Guest
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 54
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | There are plenty others around on this planet to take care of the breeding work. In the end, their children will solve our problem.
|
That Rick is the bottom line. It's the ultimate consequence of globalisation, as we see it today, sadly (not) not many here will be around to see it all harmonise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
darthvader
WayToRussified
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 427
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rick wrote: | Thanks for the article, but I must say that I would find it hard to take anyone seriously who calls climate change a 'pseudo-problem' and seems to not address issues like individualization, women's emancipation, the advance of effective birth control.
For the case of Russia, his story won't hold anymore. There is not much of a welfare state in the country...... |
The author (well, the book reviewer) I think is being ironic, when discussing the greenhouse/climate change theory.
This is because he argues that the possible demise of the West (its democratic liberalism, values and culture) - in Europe - in the "medium term", is being largely "ignored", yet has more substantiative weight:
The "Climate Change Disaster Theory" can't be ignored though, but it certainly won't worry cultures that may be no longer demographically significant in places such as Russia and parts of Europe (in say 50 years). So, are the priorities right? That is the author, Steyn's, question. Hence, the reviewer's comment about climate change.
The book actually covers a whole range of socioeconomic and demographic factors, including the de facto annexation of eastern Russia by the Chinese, simply because there won't be enough Russians left to worry about such infringements in 30 years.
Rick, mind you, the book author "does" discuss "individualization, women's emancipation, the advance of effective birth control" in great detail.
Sure, Russia is certainly NOT the USSR welfare state now. But, the author's argument is that when a nation, such as Russia, was used to 70 years of socialism, it still has not quite left that mentality, and is still waiting for Big Government to create the "ideal conditions" again for couples to procreate.
So, instead of Russia (and Europe for that matter) worrying about when economic conditions are right to have their kids, and various emancipation issues (important as they are!), these countries instead should get to the critical business of birthing to "definitely" ensure long-term cultural survival.
(Yes, these last 2 paragraphs are very, very vague - sorry! Steyn certainly makes a far better case than I can in my explanations).
Rick, I believe a biological viewpoint in demographic change in the world would be very interesting. Obviously China needs resources and room to move, hence their natural spill over into Siberia.......
The book is apparently the best political book of 2006. Well worth getting from Amazon.com. Heck, I'm not an American, and I found it a great read:
http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786
You may not think so, but this book is all about demographics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| like europe...Russia's muslim population is growing faster than the other populations in Russia. It's scary! Also it is happening in South and Central Americ. Brazil and Uraguay and Paraguay are seeing Muslum populations growing...prior to 9-11 OB was there promoting his cause. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anoki
Frequent Guest
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: mistake! |
|
|
| Hey, expat,1.3 abortions, not 13 abortions per Russian woman. You've spread misinformation. They do have most abortions in the world, which is sad but abortion is better to throwing a child into a state instituition. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jo-jo-7
Just Starting
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: Re: mistake! |
|
|
| anoki wrote: | | Hey, expat,1.3 abortions, not 13 abortions per Russian woman. You've spread misinformation. They do have most abortions in the world, which is sad but abortion is better to throwing a child into a state instituition. |
Oh...what a Noble thing to do.......  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
overseas_expat
VIP
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 741
Location: Moscow
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: Re: mistake! |
|
|
[quote="jo jo 7"] | anoki wrote: | | Hey, expat,1.3 abortions, not 13 abortions per Russian woman. You've spread misinformation. [/b] |
No my dear, everything I've seen it's an average of 13 abortions per Russian women. I have books here in the house (which I'm not bothered to list) and plenty of stats on the web from the Russian government itself and the WHO. And more astoundingly, the stat keepers in the Russian medical system don't consider a pregnancy terminated before the 3rd month to even be an abortion. It's counted as merely a D&C!
And I have a good friend here who is the friend of a female Russian ob/gyn. She was talking to the Russian doc and the woman lamented that most of what she did in her practice was abortions and how sad it was for her to become an ob/gyn to want to help mothers and bring new babies into the world, when in reality she spends more time performing abortions.
Anoki I live here and I'm very well read. I'm not exaggerating anything. And your comment about "Abortion is sad but better than throwing a child into an institution" is very revealing. Unfortunately Russian women seem to find themselves faced with these 2 bad choices far too often. Ultimately it is the woman's responsibility to control her own fertility and Russian women seem to be doing it the hard way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nikir
Frequent Guest
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 54
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Expat have 5 gold stars immediately.
THE best post this year! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jo-jo-7
Just Starting
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: abortion |
|
|
Expat...great post...I think it is sad that abortion is used as a method to control sexual activity....you are right women should be more in control of their fertility and not be so allusive to how they use it...the hard way...when you are taught right then women can make a better choices than these kinds of solutions...
Expat, I have a friend who had an abortion and to this day she lives with regret and guilt for doing it...she has problems from this abortion, that she cannot deal with...To me, I think abortion can cause some sort of mental problems afterwards, rather it is immediately or years later...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Generation-P
WayToRussified
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 316
Location: SHE WENT TO BARCELONA!
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| darthvader wrote: | http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4121
|
Found this one in the web site:
America Alone deals at length with what Mr. Steyn calls "the larger forces at play in the developed world that have left Europe too enfeebled to resist its remorseless transformation into Eurabia." Europe's successor population is already in place and "the only question is how bloody the transfer of real estate will be." He interprets the Madrid and London bombings, as well as the murder of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, as opening shots in Europe's civil war and states, "Europe is the colony now."
If I remember correctly Theo van Gogh was Dutch xenophobic politician of small very-very nationalist party. What I remember is that he had Hitler and other nice fellows as his political rolemodels... I am so not sad that people who love nazi's die! Sorry, but really, I don't feel sorry for him a bit.
About muslims, I really wouldn't be so afraighten by them. For some religious people the secularity of European countries is disturbing, but there are plenty of people who can adapt themselves into European societies. Besides, islam is not a new thing here, though the number of muslims has not always been as big as it is nowadays. Tatars and many other islam trademen have been living peacefully in our societies for years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok I think this is absolutley sickening the fact thatvrussian women on average have 13 abortions...staggering and it just goes to show that in societies where people have nothing...sex is the only form of pleasure. I hope this changes and that people in Russia value life better. But then when has Russia ever valued life? It all starts with the individual. I hope Russian women will change thier thinking on abortions.
Ok to the Muslim issue...non Muslims living in Muslim countries have no rights...Iran is a classic example. Jews and Chrisitians there are repressed. The Taliban and Al Queda stripped all rights from women in Afghanistan. Prior to them women were being granted equal rights. Promoting Eurabia and accepting it...insane...scary...and it would be the end of the world as we know it. That's not to say Muslim is a bad religion...but unfortunately the sect that wants to rule is just as bad as Naziism |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Generation-P
WayToRussified
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 316
Location: SHE WENT TO BARCELONA!
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| surfguy wrote: |
Ok to the Muslim issue...non Muslims living in Muslim countries have no rights...Iran is a classic example. Jews and Chrisitians there are repressed. The Taliban and Al Queda stripped all rights from women in Afghanistan. Prior to them women were being granted equal rights. Promoting Eurabia and accepting it...insane...scary...and it would be the end of the world as we know it. That's not to say Muslim is a bad religion...but unfortunately the sect that wants to rule is just as bad as Naziism |
Yes and for such reasons as the politics in Iran and Afganistan there are people who have strong resons to abandon their homecountries. Besides, leaving from Iran to come to Europe isn't actually free of charge, people who come have been working hard to have enough money to travel all the way to Europe, to States or to Australia, for that matter. Most of them come here because they don't have any other alternatives.
About Christians, just have a look at the history of Europe. Haven't there been repression against jewish! Also in USSR many jewish people were putten aside in science only because of their religion. Of course it wasn't the official policy, but still the way how jewish people were treated in Soviet Union wasn't the same as average non-jewish Russian was treated. Just read through the history of Joseph Brodski... And all the other religions Christians have maltreated.
And still, it is not that hard to find a xenophobic citizen, who thinks that every refugee is just trying to benefit our social security system  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mr-barley
Lounge Lizard
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 159
Location: somewhere in minnesota
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think part of the reason for all the aborted children is the whole anti-religion doctrine imposed for several generations by the communists. I was in church this morning (I read this thread before church) and it struck me that there all these families with over 2 children with them. Why? You may argue that it's because they can afford it. Not always the case. People who go to church regularly generally see abortion as killing another human being. If you look at countries with strong religious faith, you'll notice a higher birth rate. Why? Not too hard to figure out. Most religions are anti-abortion and see consequences down the road for their actions against their God. Secular countries such as Russia and the Europeon countries and to some extent, the USA have declining birth rates. As an example, I only have to look at how large the families of illegal Mexicans (strong Catholic faith) coming into this country are. They don't seem to care that they have to live in poverty ( not as poor as they'd be in Mexico) because of their high birth rate, so I think the whole economic train of thought for abortion is a cop out. Their thinking is that "the Lord will provide". Not too many starving Mexicans around here. I think Russia's abortion rate is high because, without a sturdy religious background there is little regard for the unborn and it is just a "thing" they are getting rid of. How's that for stirring the pot.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
