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Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Talk Lounge

Author	Message
uday WayToRussified Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 323	Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:44 pm    Post subject: Ukraine I'm interested in hearing the Russians view on the events in Ukraine. Do you think there'll be a civil war if the real winner isn't given the leadership? Will mother Russia intervene? What does the future hold for U?
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cyndy22 Lounge Wizard Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 1076 Location: massachusetts	Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject: I just emailed my friend in Ukraine about this. The previous email I received from Yuriy was how tense the election was. Apparently tension has increased with the protesting. I am waiting for Yuriy's email to updatee and share his thoughts and feelings about what is going on. ps isn't it nice to have a civil communication! I am not joking. The forum is a better place when we all are here for news, support and other information and ideas relevant to Russia. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
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uday WayToRussified Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 323	Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:39 am    Post subject: Cheers, I'm interested in hearing about it
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wu687 Lounge Lizard Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Posts: 199 Location: Victoria BC, Canada	Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:08 am    Post subject: Web Camera Kyiv, Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) http://www.1plus1.net/video/camera.php
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Dan23 Frequent Guest Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 53 Location: Davis, CA	Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:14 am    Post subject: Umm, mother Russia won't intervene on the side of Ющенко. Янукович is Путин's candidate. Dan
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uday WayToRussified Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 323	Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:26 pm    Post subject: Care to elaborate on that dan?
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Dan23 Frequent Guest Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 53 Location: Davis, CA	Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:27 am    Post subject: Well, here' s the situation as I understand it: Yushchenko was projected to win the election if it was carried out fairly, and when he lost, the EU suspected foul play and called for an investigation, and foreign leaders are hesitant to recognize the results (including the USA - http://www.lenta.ru/world/2004/11/24/powell/ ). Vladimir Putin and Leonid Kuchma (outgoing leader) are both staunch backers of Yanukovich. Ukraine has been leaning dangerously toward falling back under Russia's military umbrella (its own military is quite broke). It seems Putin is slowly trying to rebuild some kind of post-soviet coalition. He has some experience with installing pro-Kremlin candidates already (think Chechnya). I hear Belarus is already pretty much under Putin's wing. If the protests are any indication, political progressives aren't accepting the result. (I wish that would happen here - my sig refers to the USA). Correct me where I'm wrong. Dan Edit: Ющенко gets most of his support from nationalists in the western half, while Янукович gets his support from the highly industrialized eastern half. I think Янукович even wants to make Russian the national language.
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36_CKOTUHOK Frequent Guest Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 29	Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Orange zombies.. huh.. I can name myself "democrat", "the one who fights for freedom", "savior of the nation" - byt I will be myself anyway, and my thoughts won't change. Why Yshenko, who has stolen $2bln only in 90-92, would became honest now? His hands are too dirty to trust him anymore.
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Dan23 Frequent Guest Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 53 Location: Davis, CA	Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: As far as I know, from a foreign perspective, the debate at this point is not about who would be a more honest leader, but whether the election was stolen. Many western governments - including the US (how's that for irony?) - believe that it was. Dan
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castilho Frequent Guest Joined: 20 Mar 2004 Posts: 71 Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil	Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:24 pm    Post subject: Ukraine C'mon guys. Civil war is too catastrophic. Things are not like that so far. We have some brazilians football players there - Kleber and Diogo Rincón - defending Dynamo of Kiev and they say everything is under control, except the protests in the big square. They are not afraid. The life goes on. And they'll play tomorrow.
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36_CKOTUHOK Frequent Guest Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 29	Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:50 pm    Post subject: This is a choice between bad man and very bad man. I think the only way to save Ukraine is to divide it and make Yanukovich to govern eastern part, while Yshenko is to govern Western part. And some kind of counsil will be used to make decisions which affect both parts. Anyway, east will never accept Yshenko. People understand that they will face Yshenko revenge, so they support Yanukovich.
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Mogsfan WayToRussified Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:54 pm    Post subject: Quote: I think the only way to save Ukraine is to divide it and make Yanukovich to govern eastern part, while Yshenko is to govern Western part. And some kind of counsil will be used to make decisions which affect both parts. Anyway, east will never accept Yshenko. People understand that they will face Yshenko revenge, so they support Yanukovich. This doesn't work at all. In every country that has done this, it has ultimately been a huge failure. The more overly communistic/totalitarian country eventually collapses and it brings down the other more liberal country. Look at Germany. I think the Czech Republic is doing moderately better than Slovakia but you'd have to ask Czech nationals for more info. IMHO, a division is a bad idea. The other problem is too few people will realize the split is a bad idea and will blame a negative result on other things without admitting the truth. Even if Yushchenko is also corrupt (in his own way), the split will not be a good result for either subsequent "country" imho.
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Dan23 Frequent Guest Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 53 Location: Davis, CA	Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:43 pm    Post subject: How could one country "bring down" the other if they are both totally sovereign? I see secession on political grounds as basically a lite form of self-determination, which I always support. For example, Chechnya. I don't see why Russia has to insist on keeping this tiny region inside its border. It seems to do more harm than good. Or can you imagine an Israeli/Palestinian state? It would be civil war. I know these are extreme examples, but the concept is still applicable. Not that I think every country should break up into lots of little parts based on political rivalries, but it may have advantages. For example (violent cases): if one ethnic group starts oppressing the other, isn't international intervention easier if the violence is happening across borderlines, instead of being a civil conflict? I recognize how tentative unity can make a country stronger. But I don't think it should be forced upon people with a division along an established border (like in Ukraine). The only big fear I would have about Ukraine splitting up is the eastern half falling under Putin's "democratic" management. These are just my thoughts - feel free to shoot down any part of them. Dan By the way, here's an interesting article putting the situation in some international perspective, from the San Francisco Chronicle: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/11/30/EDGDHA2DG21.DTL
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Dr-Fauste Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654	Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:01 pm    Post subject: Why keep it? First, Oil Second : Mafia Third : Pride Fourth : Domino effect with Tartar republics Fifth: War keeps a government in power- aka George Orwell's 1984 and the USA(No president has been defeated in a time of crisis)
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Dr-Fauste Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654	Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject: Okay what about Romanian Elections? Why is the west not crying about them? Why is the focus on Ukraine and not both corrupted elections?
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