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Poverty in Russia

Way to Russia Talk Lounge Forum Index -> Russian People

Do you think poverty is a major issue in Russia, sufficient enough to cause people to scam or to want to leave Russia? Yes, Definately  33%  [ 4 ] Somewhat  25%  [ 3 ] So-So  8%  [ 1 ] Somewhat no  8%  [ 1 ] No, Definately Not  0%  [ 0 ] Don't know  25%  [ 3 ] Total Votes : 12
Author	Message
markhagelin Talk Show Host Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 208 Location: Maine, USA	Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:05 pm    Post subject: Poverty in Russia Some claim poverty in Russia is a "non-issue" when they talk about Russian women either scamming America or foreign men or when Russian women look for foreign men as possible husbands. http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_231925.php 27 April 2004 11:48 Who`s Poor in Russia? Natalya Arkhangelskaya Quote: It’s impossible to give a simple answer to the question, “Who is poor in Russia?” Depending on how the answer will be used, researchers apply different criteria and methods and accordingly get different results. International comparisons provoke the most discussion. There is no single way to determine poverty in the US, Russia, Nigeria, and Sweden: poverty is a relative concept. But there is a single tool to define extreme impoverishment. You determine the portion of the population living on a dollar a day, then for various countries like Russia, which has a cold climate, various coefficients are applied. As a result according to these methods, a poor person in Russia is someone living on 25 rubles a day. These people make up about 7% of the population. There are no people this poor in America and Western Europe, if we are talking about legal citizens. But in Eastern Europe they make up 3-4%, and in China 18%. - But seven percent is really low. You often hear estimates that more than twenty percent of Russians live below the poverty line. When the president, for example, talks about poverty, he usually uses the figure 22%, or thirty million people. Other methods give other results. But let’s deal first with the official poverty line. It is based on a minimum basket of consumer goods that cost 2143 rubles late last year. Quote: One of the specific features of Russian poverty is that half of the Russian poor work. Quote: What would a collective portrait of the thirty million poor Russians look like? - The poorest group is children ages seven to fourteen. Next come people living in villages and towns in depressed regions, regardless of profession. The poor are often government employees, like teachers, doctors, and low-level clerks. The poorest people by profession are the service staff at hospitals and clinics. The situation in education is a little more equal. The average age of a poor Russian is impossible to determine, but in general, the poor are older than those who are better off. Gender is also a factor, but its significance is gradually disappearing. Also, importantly, the most serious factor determining poverty is education level. Quote: The rich in Russia have fourteen times the income of the poor. This figure is based on data from the State Statistics Committee, and it is fairly stable. One of the most recent articles on Russian poverty http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8389-3.cfm Quote: 26% OF RUSSIAN FAMILIES LIVE IN EXTREME POVERTY MOSCOW, October 1 (RIA Novosti) - The Independent Social Policy Institute has conducted a survey of 44,000 families in 79 Russian Federation members. According to the survey, 26% of them live in extreme poverty. As many as 33.9% of them live in rural areas, and 17.4% in cities with a population of over 500,000 people. The results of the research and expert conclusions are published in Novye Izvestia. Russian pensioners are not the poorest section of the population. Single pensioners account for merely 5.9% of people whose income is below the subsistence level, while the figure for pensioners' couples is 3.1%. Sixty percent of poor families have children: 41% are married couples with children under 18, and 20.2% are one-parent families with children. Interestingly, for 35.3% of families, every member is in work. Accordingly, the idea that the number of jobs should simply be increased to raise national welfare is a moot point. This is all the more true given that experts point out that Russia's unemployment rate is far lower than in Western countries. There are many families (26%) where one member is seeking work. Regional social programs are failing to solve the poverty problem: 34% of those signed up still live in poor conditions. According to experts, the emphasis should be placed on individual support for the poor in rich regions. Poor regions, in turn, should be bolstered with budget allocations and federal support. Those who claim that there is no incentive for young people to leave do not understand. Here in Maine many of the young people leave because better jobs can be found elswhere. Boston is a goo "magnet" for younger Maine people. I didn't make up the statistics. Mark
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markhagelin Talk Show Host Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 208 Location: Maine, USA	Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: When either 22% [1 in 5] or 26% [1 in 4] of the population lives in poverty or using a population number given as 30 million people [30,000,000], how can one argue that there is no incentive for young people to leave Russia? Or that there is no reason to scam? With 30,000,000 people at the poverty level: If 1% are scammers ------->300,000 scammers. If .1% are scammers--------->30,000 scammers. If the Russian government doesn't crackdown on scammers, who will have the incentive to work? Add to that, the level of corrupton, what foreign business in their right mind would want to come to Russia? If it were possible to do it without foreigners, wouldn't the Russian government have done it by now? Given the decrease in population growth and flight overseas by many of Russia's youth, who will keep the Russian economy growing? Russia has the potential to become a nation of senior citizens without the ability or potential ability to remain self sufficient. Mark
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DennisF Lounge Lizard Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 97 Location: Texas	Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 pm    Post subject: Russian Poverty With the price of crude oil at it's present levels, the Russian government is operating at a profit. They are repaying some of their IMF debt. Do you think much of that surplus trickles down to the poor? Not likely. In Russia (as elsewhere) I suspect that the policticians and wealthy are lining their pockets while the poor get little, if anything. Another interesting fact is that the poverty level contributes to the fact that the Russian social system is "supporting" over 700,000 russian orphans by their own admission. Russian families are allowed to adopt these orphans free of charge but no one can afford it and the ones that can don't want to. In addition, I've read that the number of abortions is more than double the number of live births. In fact, one article I read states that abortion is the primary method of birth control in Russia. Of course there are scammers. I bet that many of them don't fall within the poverty level either. How many poverty level persons can afford a computer in Russia? Somebody is providing the computers and I bet that somebldy is making a tidy profit out of it.
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Dr-Fauste Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654	Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:18 am    Post subject: Dennis, before Abortions were covered or paid by the government & birth control was not. So the cheaper route was abortion. Just like your country (I saw more homeless people in DC, than Moscow), greed and corruption is killing the country. Once the financial industry stablizes and increased checks and balances, the economy of Russia will prosper. Russia needs a honest man with great strength and bullet proof vest to clean up the corruption. Putin is not that man. USA was like Russia in 30's and took many great men to clean up that situation. Now USA has to it again.
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markhagelin Talk Show Host Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 208 Location: Maine, USA	Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Russian Poverty DennisF wrote: With the price of crude oil at it's present levels, the Russian government is operating at a profit. They are repaying some of their IMF debt. Do you think much of that surplus trickles down to the poor? Not likely. In Russia (as elsewhere) I suspect that the policticians and wealthy are lining their pockets while the poor get little, if anything. Another interesting fact is that the poverty level contributes to the fact that the Russian social system is "supporting" over 700,000 russian orphans by their own admission. Russian families are allowed to adopt these orphans free of charge but no one can afford it and the ones that can don't want to. In addition, I've read that the number of abortions is more than double the number of live births. In fact, one article I read states that abortion is the primary method of birth control in Russia. Of course there are scammers. I bet that many of them don't fall within the poverty level either. How many poverty level persons can afford a computer in Russia? Somebody is providing the computers and I bet that somebldy is making a tidy profit out of it. I agree about the oil. Quote: The rich in Russia have fourteen times the income of the poor. This figure is based on data from the State Statistics Committee, and it is fairly stable. Many of the Russian dating agencies don't charge the women, just the men. After scamming 1 person, a woman can use the money gained to pay for Internet access. She has a "return on her initial investment". With anywhere from 3,000 [at .01% of 30 million] to 300,000 [at 1%] of the population, is it no wonder there are so many men getting scammed? A man with good intentions feels the effect of a nation at the poverty level. Those who are working average $2,000 to $4,000 a year in Russia, when compared to our poverty level income for the US of $10,000. It shows a 2 1/2 to 5 times as much difference. It will get worse before it gets better. As feminism starts show its effect, the divorce rate in Russia will skyrocket. The continued masculinization of women will only add fuel to the fire. Statistics showing rises in abortions and children born out of wedlock with in Russia are already pointing to that fact. It is ironic that in America the majority of Americans are opposed to same-sex marriages, but they are not opposed to relationships/marriages in which both men and women act masculine. It is to be expected that if a woman is unable to shift from being masculine in the workplace to feminine in the household. I plan on continuing to research this issue to make it a topic of a book. I think the breakdown in the American family can be traced directly to the masculinization of women. No household can have 2 masters. One person must necessarily speak for the house, after both man and woman have had a chance to speak theire mind. If religion every truly takes "charge" of the moral compass of Russia, neither the Catholic or Orthodox Churches will support a female dominated household. Anything that Russia can do is only in the shortrun. There are not enough young people to support the "greying" of Russia. As more and more Russians get older, without a younger generation to support them, they will find difficulty surviving. USA is falling apart due to feminists with an extreme agenda. I totally support equal pay for equal work, but that is it. Mary Magdelene [sp?] washed Jesus feet with her hair. Would any of today's women be willing to do that? If it is argued that man was given dominion by God, what right has woman to challenge God given authority? My view is that feminism is Satan's way to undo God's plan. As he tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden, so too does he now tempt today's "Eve" by making her think that she is superior or meant to be in charge. But both are guilty. Men for not living up to the authority entrusted by God and women for rebelling against that authority. Jewish scholars may have removed the story of Lilith just like they removed Enoch and other Old Testement works. Why? To get away from Angel or Demon worship. Lilith was created the same as Adam and rebelled against him. Then Eve was created from Adam's side. Perhaps as a reminder that woman comes from man. In any case Lilith had intercourse with demons and had demonic offspring. This could explain Paganism and the "Worship of Mother Earth" and the worship of the female Goddess. Equality and balance are not the same and unless there is a path back to God's original role/plan, the conditions will get worse not better. Mark
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overseas_expat VIP Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 741 Location: Moscow	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:50 am    Post subject: This is one of my favorite irritations. When I first got here I felt terrible at the widespread poverty that I saw. Poor long-suffering Russians trying to eke out a living in a harsh and unforgiving environment. Now I saw phooey. Start of tirade: Russians are poor because they would rather worm or scheme or scam their way through the world of work rather than buttoning down and putting in 40 hours of WORK a week like the rest of us. They get paid the same whether they produce anything of substance or not. So they don't. They shuffle through the work day putting out as little effort as possible then go home early. They may be open for business--or they may not. They may turn on the lights so the customers can SEE the goods they're selling--or they may not. They may lock the door in your face during business hours and just disappear. They won't sell you something if you don't have exact change. And then they're on holiday and vacation for half the year. This country has NO work ethic. And so they are poor. And so they shall remain till they get their butts in gear and realize that the way to earn money>IS TO WORK FOR IT< As long as their work productivity is zilch they will remain poor. And I don't feel sorry for them any more.
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Jutrzenkapolska VIP Joined: 16 Sep 2004 Posts: 534	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: Russian Poverty markhagelin wrote: Mary Magdelene [sp?] Mark Magdalene
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Jutrzenkapolska VIP Joined: 16 Sep 2004 Posts: 534	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:41 am    Post subject: By the way, this is all BS. As my mother always said, a marriage works if A) one person, preferably the woman, dominates the household and makes the decisions and the other is all too happy to obey or B) both people are looking in the same direction together.It doesn't work if both people are stong willed, have a desire to control and there is constant power struggle. The poor are poor because they had bad luck, no one helped them and someone has to do the dirty work in society or the whole thing would topple over.The poor are not poor because they deserve it.
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Randy Lounge Lizard Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 Location: Texas, USA	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:37 am    Post subject: Poverty in Russia I agree with you Expat, but there are some who have better work ethic's. I used to question my wife about those exact work ethics, but her lodgic confuses me sometimes. I was living in St.Pete at one time and learned very quickly not to do any business before 10am, and nearly none during the summer. One of the hospitals I was working with, half of the employee's took off six weeks for vacation at the begining of summer, and when they returned the other half went. When this happened I took off on vacation because I couldn't get anything accomplished. I figured while in Rome do as the Romans do, but when it came to my work ethic's I couldn't compromise. My wife worked for a foreign firm. She said when her, and the other ladies get to work they were allowed at least an hour free time to put on make-up. Yes, they got paid for that hour. My wife was one of the higher paid Russian's at that time, making $100 a month. As far as the poor in Russia, the government statistics vary depending on who did the study, and does not put a face on the poor for me. Since I work with people who come from many different backgrounds, education, empolyment, or lack of it, etc I can keep up on current pay level's including pensioner's, and different age levels. The only way I can determine who is improverished, or who is doing really well is to compare the people's pay to the cost of living. Since I also do my own shopping when I'm there I know the cost of food, clothes, shelter, transportation, and even the cost of a good time at the Arizona Bar, excluding the ladies of the evening of course. After making these comparisons I don't understand how most people don't starve to death. I do know that most everyone I know, when they take that long paid vacation in the summer, go to the dacha, or government plot to work in their gardens, and orchards, and brew their own booze. Also, the people I know do a lot of bartering to get clothes, and some other basic items. It is sort of like my old home place in Tennessee used to be years ago. I got into trouble once when I had guest over for diner. I threw away a big empty glass jar while one of my friends wife was watching. She scolded me for being wasteful, saying that nobody throws away a jar that can be used for canning food. I felt terrible, but it taught me a lesson as to the lodgical mind set of a Russian. To bad this isn't practiced here in the US.
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Dr-Fauste Site Admin Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 654	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:12 am    Post subject: many people work under the table. Russian economy is very underground.
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milonguero Frequent Guest Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 32 Location: San Francisco, US	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: To Jutrzenkapolska (example of fine Russian humor), "Love is not when two people stare at each other, love is when two people look in the same direction" (Antoine de St.-Exupery) "...for last twenty yeares my wife and me look in the same direction... into the TV box" (moscow poet E. Bunimovich) To others, on the main topic of this thread, in particular to the overseas expat: I could have elaborated on the "work ethics" topic a lot, and do not do it here only because I hate to open a pissing contest. As a Russian, and as a Silicon Valley professional I have a lot to say to those who use the word "work" to describe this working ant 16 hrs/day masturbatory activity. I have a lot to say to those, who tell that only Americans can work, while in other countries, where the gas stations close for the lunch breaks people simply do not work their a**es hard enough and that is why they are poor, but just do not get me started. First, are you God, expat, to determine the social value of individual based on the hours of work and so-called "ethics". For example, the French paratrooper who have invented the zip fly have never ever worked since, only collected royalties, hence had no work ethics at all. In my opinion the most positive impact on US economy can be achieved by massive laying off the multimillion army of mid-level corporate "productivity enhancement managers" and other similar folks who generally demonstrate impeccable work ethics for 12 or more hours a day, 7 or more days a week producing the interdepartmental memos, writing reports, calculating others' utilization (never their own), writing manuals on safe usage of teaspoons and paperclips in corporate cafeteria, assuring other employees of their companies follow guidlines of "work ethics"... and other perverted forms of jerking off. I really do not want to elaborate more and appeal to political and social thinkers (i.e. H. Marcuse), but I want to state that the approach you take is strongly offensive for a lot of people. You can not expect "work ethics" from the people solving basic survival problem. You can not make a PhD in biology who is balancing the tires to survive love his job, and his only fault is being born in a "transitional period". I personally have seen a technician in the US who could sleep under the piece of equipment while his hand could move and make noise with the wrenches, so that everyone thinks that he works. Yes, his Russian counterpart simply sleeps. According to you, expat, the first has work ethics while the second does not. I could write more, but I simply do not want. Please, do not get me started.
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milonguero Frequent Guest Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 32 Location: San Francisco, US	Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:14 am    Post subject: P.S. I did not want to sound anti-American, I have simply lived long enough in these two countries, Russia and the US and therefore consider myself somene who has a right to compare. Result of comparison is that people with REAL work ethics work the same way in any country and the percentage of these people is not so high in whatever country (definitely under 50%), while Russian economic situation is much much harder. Plus, if the really professional individual will be permanently pushed to his limits he will be only loosing his productivity over extended periods of time. Back in Russia I have met some of the hardest-working people in my life, but in a number of situations people are facing in Russia today it is very easy to loose any motivation.
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