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Rimski
Frequent Guest
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 58
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 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| StephenB. wrote: | | The explanation that lead to Stalin's brutality was that the guy was insane and created his own ideology of communism that didn't reflect Marx or Engels. |
Stalin was neither insane nor a monster, he was pragmatic. Pitiless but pragmatic.
| surfguy wrote: | | ...look to Cambodia too...how many of thier own people were killed at the hands of the Kamer Ruge (sorry for the spelling)... |
Cambodia was freed from the Khmers by the communist vietnamese army (sorry for the spelling).
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
- the non agression pact in 1938 which let Hitler starting his war on the west front knowing he shouln't have to fight on the east side. |
The Soviet Union was not ready to engage the battle at that moment. Both of Hitler and Stalin knew very well that the confrontation was later inevitable.
Last edited by Rimski on Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:13 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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StephenB.
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 807
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Rimski wrote: | | StephenB. wrote: | | The explanation that lead to Stalin's brutality was that the guy was insane and created his own ideology of communism that didn't reflect Marx or Engels. |
Staline was not inasne, he was pragmatic.
| surfguy wrote: | | ...look to Cambodia too...how many of thier own people were killed at the hands of the Kamer Ruge (sorry for the spelling)... |
Cambodia was freed from the Khmers by the communist vietnamese army (sorry for the spelling).
| mister_wizzz wrote: |
- the non agression pact in 1938 which let Hitler starting his war on the west front knowing he shouln't have to fight on the east side. |
The Soviet Union was not able to fight at that moment and both of Hitler and Staline knew very well that the confrontation was later inevitable. |
Rimski, Stalin didn't come from the school of Pragmatism..he was far from pragmatic...Cult of personality took hold of him he deviated from Marx and Engels theory of communism. Yes he did move Russia into a very industrial productive society and made some positive changes, however, one has to be insane (not in the sense of insitutionalize insane) but an expression of not thinking rationally and not being empathetic of other people. Knowing that people are starving around you and your the cause..starting to believe that your friends are scheming behind your back thus sending innocent people to gulags, having your own son killed, force migrations of different ethnic groups to areas and environments that are not conducive to the way they live or killing hundreds of priests, monks, and nuns is not someone who is pragmatic...it's someone who has lost his mind. This guy was once going into the Georgian Church and be something good, however, he sold his soul to the Devil instead. |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes Stalin was a complete psycho...he actually behaved like a coke head |
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RusskiCanadian23
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1104
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada/Âàíêóâåð, Áðèòàíñêàÿ Êîëóìáèÿ, Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| surfguy wrote: | | Yes Stalin was a complete psycho...he actually behaved like a coke head |
He may have been a psycho, but it was thanks to that psycho's leadership, that USSR won WW2. His policy that any men who attempt to retreat from the battle lines were to be shot for deserting and treason, was of course brutal, but it made the soldiers fight to the last. The wounded men, as the lay on the ground, would let the Germans come near to take them prisoner, and then pulled the ring out of a grenade. Blew themselves, and the Germans into pieces. Those men died like heroes. Like martyrs really.
On the other hand, it was because of Stalin's ways that USSR had such horrible losses in The Great Patriotic War (some say up to 30, 000, 000 lives were lost!) |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: |
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actually...after watching this...maybe russia did do the right thing by killing everyone and keeping borders closed
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ |
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Rimski
Frequent Guest
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| StephenB. wrote: | | ...killing hundreds of priests, monks, and nuns is not someone who is pragmatic... |
And i suppose, priests, monks and nuns are the nice ones? |
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Yuri-s-Girl
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 371
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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People are just too violent.
YG |
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StephenB.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Rimski wrote: | | StephenB. wrote: | | ...killing hundreds of priests, monks, and nuns is not someone who is pragmatic... |
And i suppose, priests, monks and nuns are the nice ones? |
Compared to Stalin..yes  |
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StephenB.
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jo-jo-7
Just Starting
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Yuri's Girl wrote: | People are just too violent.
YG |
Worse than they ever been...it must be all the chemicals in the food now...
Where is everybody? Did everybody get lost or something? Nobody is posting anything? |
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Yuri-s-Girl
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 371
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| jo jo 7 wrote: | | Yuri's Girl wrote: | People are just too violent.
YG |
Worse than they ever been...it must be all the chemicals in the food now...
Where is everybody? Did everybody get lost or something? Nobody is posting anything? |
Are they getting ready for Halloween maybe? LOL
YG  |
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jo-jo-7
Just Starting
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Yuri's Girl wrote: | | jo jo 7 wrote: | | Yuri's Girl wrote: | People are just too violent.
YG |
Worse than they ever been...it must be all the chemicals in the food now...
Where is everybody? Did everybody get lost or something? Nobody is posting anything? |
Are they getting ready for Halloween maybe? LOL
YG |
Could be....do you celebrated Halloween? |
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Rimski
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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We always speak about the brutality of Stalin but most people forget that if communism raised in Russia it's because of the extreme poverty of the russian people under the tyrrany of the Tsars. This is the tyranny of the Tsars that led Russia to communism.
Under the monarchy, the Tsar was the chief of The Church. The Church helped the Tsars to maintain their oppressive power. We should not forget that The russian Church was in complicity with the tyranny during centuries. Priest, monks and nuns were not innocent. They have contributed to the tyranny.
If Stalin did something right, it's the dynamiting of the cathedral Of Christ the Saviour en 1931 (december 5th). And today the Russian Church doesn't recognize its faults. They have canonized Nicolas II. Great! If the communists did something right, it's also the execution of the Romanov. I say, well done!
Under communism, one can regret the lack of freedom but the Romanov, priests, monks and nuns are certainly not to regret.
Last edited by Rimski on Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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nikir
Just Starting
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Rimsky, you are comparing one tyrannical dynasty with another.
Nobody fared any better, only the ideologies changed.
I do agree with you about the ROC though. |
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surfguy
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Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6979
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well it just goes to show that power corrupts!
| Quote: | THE RE-SOVIETIZATION OF RUSSIA
Written by Ariel Cohen
Friday, 19 October 2007
Last Friday and Saturday (10/12-13), Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates visited Moscow. They met with President Vladimir Putin, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and First Deputy Prime Minister Sergey Ivanov, for what are known as the "2 + 2 talks." These were agreed upon in Kennebunkport, Maine, between Presidents George W. Bush and Mr. Putin. The Moscow talks did not go well.
Before the talks started, Mr. Putin made Miss Rice and Mr. Gates wait for him for 40 minutes - a deliberate diplomatic slight. Greeting the two senior U.S. Cabinet members in front of TV cameras, Mr. Putin came out adamantly against deployment of the U.S. component of the global ballistic missile defense in Poland and the Czech Republic.
As Miss Rice and Mr. Gates were visiting Moscow, the Russian capital was in the midst of two overlapping political games: the overt Duma and presidential election cycle of December 2007-March 2008, and the mostly covert power struggle between competing pro-Putin factions over the architecture of the next Russian regime.
In it, competing factions such as the Russian Federal Security Service and the Anti-Narcotics Committee - both headed by Mr. Putin's loyalists - are lobbing op-eds at each other, but, more significantly, arresting each other's senior officers and generals.
At stake is not just power, but control of tens of billions of dollars in property and state-owned enterprises, including oil, gas, other commodities, weapons, shipping, autos and aerospace industries.
Every move the Putin administration makes today is dictated by the desire to shape Russia's future internal power structure and to set the course for the country's foreign and security affairs in general, and its relationship with the United States in particular for years to come.
Keeping the relationship with Washington on the verge of a crisis and inventing an imaginary "American enemy" is creating much needed legitimacy for the current Russian leadership, which now has only Mr. Putin's personal popularity as its political base.
The image of Russia surrounded by enemies is absolutely necessary for today's Russian ruling class of senior secret police officers, as it positions them in the eyes of the people as the saviors and defenders of Mother Russia.
This approach has venerable roots in Russian pre-Communist history, hearkening back to Ivan the Terrible's rule of the late 16th century, and the Romanov police state of the 19th and early 20th centuries.
By trying to prevent bilateral security arrangements between the United States and Poland and the Czech Republic, Russia is reasserting its veto power in its former Eastern European empire. "We are fighting American imperialism," Russian security expert Alexander Pikayev told me personally during a BBC debate I had with him on Friday (10/12).
Mr. Putin has threatened to pull Russia out of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty, signed by President Ronald Reagan and former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, that eliminated the Russian SS-20 missiles and U.S. Pershing-2 missiles deployed in Europe.
This chilling rhetoric has quickly acquired specific military target sets. Before the June G-8 summit in Heiligendamm, Germany, Mr. Putin issued an unprecedented threat to retarget Russia's nuclear missiles at Europe in response to potential future deployment of missile defenses there.
Russia has also threatened to pull out of the Conventional Forces in Europe (CFE) Treaty, which limits its troop levels between the Baltic and the Black Seas. Russia claims NATO members do not abide by or did not ratify the CFE Treaty. Russia may also be reluctant to extend the START-2 and the accompanying Moscow Treaty past 2009, the two agreements which limit strategic nuclear weapons .
By destroying the European security treaties regime, Mr. Putin is returning to the Soviet strategic posture that predated the Reagan-Gorbachev era in which the Cold War was ended. He also undoes the achievements of U.S. Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, and Mr. Yeltsin's own predecessor, Boris Yeltsin.
But Russian ambitions go beyond missiles. At the St. Petersburg Economic Summit in June, Mr. Putin suddenly called for revising the global economic architecture, including the World Trade Organization (WTO). This unprecedented initiative reflects Moscow's current anti-status quo mindset.
The deteriorating trajectory of U.S.-Russian relations may allow the Kremlin to retaliate further. Russia - and possibly China - could bolster Iran's stalling tactics. The U.S.-European coalition has demanded, through the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the U.N. Security Council, intrusive verification and inspections of Iran's sprawling nuclear complex.
Russia may enable the Islamic Republic to acquire nuclear weapons and the platforms to deliver them, with far-reaching destabilizing consequences for Iraq, the Persian Gulf, Sunni-Shia relations and vital U.S. interests in the region as well as the security, including the survival, of Israel. The crisis with Russia may also lead to more Russian arms supplies to Syria, another principal Middle East adversary of the United States.
The Russians know how to play well the game of spoiler.
The old Soviet obsession - that Russia's fate, its cosmic goal, is to fight "American imperialism" - remains undiluted, even 15 years after the collapse of communism. This is tragic - for Russia, Europe and the world. |
Personally I think Putin is far smarter than any of the West's leaders. Whether his aims are good or not shall be seen. But Stalin...he was a killer and I think he enjoyed it! |
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