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nikir
Just Starting
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Then your fucked anyway. That's life again! |
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jo-jo-7
Just Starting
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| nikir wrote: | | MelissaCato wrote: | | A friend of mine a few years ago emailed me a link to download free a Russian keyboard that sat on my system tray, and I just clicked it to switch from English ... does anyone know what I'm talking about or where I can get it, my friend is no where to be found. ????? I'd like that one back. Thanks. |
I use this one
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PaulGor/
It's perfect for what i want although If I have to use a real Russian keyboard I'm stuffed. |
Thanks for this link...  |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| nikir wrote: |
I do not live in Russia and am not familiar with the keyboard layout there. I am however very familiar with the qwerty layout and often type in both English and Russian.
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You are not alone:
- me and hundreds thousands more former USSR citizenz are out of Russia for many, many years
- we are NOT familiar at all with Russian _standard_ keyboard layout - it would take me forever to type with it
- we are very familiar with 'qwerty' layout
- AND (this is what I wrote in this thread all along) there is a very handy thing for such people like us called
PHONETIC (homophonic) Russian keyboard layout - unlike _standard_ one, this lets us type in QWERTY mode:
A-A,K-K,O-O,..., ...
And the beauty is that we do so wiithout any 3rd party program - we just spend (one time) 10 minutes to tune-up regular _system_ keyboard to such Phonetic mode!
Now, when I have "RU" in the task bar I type in "qwerty mode" - getting Russian 'A' by pressing a btton with latin 'A', ...
Moreover, this Phonetic layout is modifiable - you will be able to re-arrange some letters.
And because it's a regular system keyboard, it works in any application.
It's all was explained above in this thread or you can go directly to the tune-up instruction at
************* http://Phonetic.RusWin.net
*** |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Rick wrote: | I used stickers for a Russian keyboard layout. The trouble is though that they sometimes fall off after a while  |
The majority of former USSR citizens now living all over the world can NOT use such method:
we usually use Internet _at work_ - we are new immigrants and spend enormous amount of hours _there_.
While at work, one can NOT use stickers, can NOT use marker...
This is one of the reasons that we use Phonetic layout (A-A,O-O,K-K,... - 'qwerty mode') and not the Standard Russian layout
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hext0r
Just Starting
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 1
Location: CA/USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: exchausive list |
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thanks PavelUSA and guys for such a complete list of links on the topic. Here is an another online english-russian translit converter which I can recommend as it's seldomly down, comparing to few others 
And yes, I bought the keyboard stickers too. Be a bit picky there as not all of them are good and can stand long usage.
Greets n cheers |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: |
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.
If you already got used to such tool, then it's fine, no one suggests you to switch to another BUT we should NOT recommend such tool to a person who is only starting to look for a Russian typing tool:
less and less people have a need to struggle with such tool - "converters" it's a BAD approach because
"guessing algorithm of converting several latin letters to one Russian"
is a way to nowhere - has serious problems and no solutions because of the nature of that approach.
Unlike system keyboard where it's clean situation -
ONE button produces one Russian letter and there is BIG advantage of
"same Russian letter got inputed using same single key - for each and every Russian word"
the tool which you pointed to has awful thing (easy to see) causing a user think about "word type" -
............... all the time! -
instead of thinking about the content of the messages
"converter" - because of the fact that several latin letters produce one Russian - has awful thing:
"same Russian letter must be inputed differently based on the 'type of word'  :
a) In the words like "Pojti", latin 'j' can be used to input Russian 'é', but not in the words like "major" or "jod" -
and if a user does not catch that 'difference in the type of the word", s/he gets a gibberish ("¸ä", "ìà¸ð)
b) In the words like "Vyjti", latin 'y' can be used to input Russian 'û', but not in the words like "vyuchil" -
and if a user does not catch that 'difference in the type of the word", s/he gets a gibberish ("âþ÷èë")
c) In the words like "Poehal", latin 'h' can be used to input Russian 'õ', but not in the words like "shodil" -
and if a user does not catch that 'difference in the type of the word", s/he gets a gibberish ("øîäèë")
etc.
There is no comparison between "last century", problematic method of "converting translit" and modern way of using - both on your own computer and in
Internet-cafe - the (problem-free) method of
************** system keyboard input
System keyboard at home can be used either with Standard Russian layout or with Phonetic layout, when A-A,O-O,Á-B,Ä-D,Ô-F,Ê-K,... (see my previous message right before yours)
And same method of system input can be used outside of your home (why use different typing method at home and outside of home?) -
100% imitation of system keyboard input (though mouse works too) and with the same layout a person uses at home - Standard or Phonetic:
Kbd.RusWin.net
********** |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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.
If you read Russian fluently, you may want to read the article about "translit converters" as a last century, outdated way of getting Cyrillic -
based on a factual data cited there:
http://RusWin.net/conv-bad.htm
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vox16
WayToRussified
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| PavelUSA wrote: | .
If you already got used to such tool, then it's fine, no one suggests you to switch to another BUT we should NOT recommend such tool to a person who is only starting to look for a Russian typing tool:
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So why is it better than translit.ru ( regarding stanadart éöóêåí version ? |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| vox16 wrote: | | PavelUSA wrote: | .
If you already got used to such tool, then it's fine, no one suggests you to switch to another BUT we should NOT recommend such tool to a person who is only starting to look for a Russian typing tool:
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So why is it better than translit ru site ( regarding standard éöóêåí version ? |
I was writing above about "converting translit combinations" and now you are asking about another, different page of that site - Virtual Keyboard at http://translit.ru/?ru-keyboard which has
Standard Russian layout éöóêåíã, right?
The difference between new Keyboard I wrote about ( http://porusski.net ) and this old Keyboard is easy to see really (only because new Keyboard was designed only after careful looking at all predecessors and also was put under critics on forums - for purpose, to find in advance what end users need).
New Keyboard also has Standard layout éöóêåíã but does not have the following problems:
- Virtual Keyboard on translit site is an outdated utility - and it's author is NOT the owner of translit site (he does state that he took it from other guys - many years ago). That is, unlike main features of translit site - "converting translit combinations" (developed by owner himself) this Virtual Keyboard is not under constant upgrade and renewal
--
- It offers only one Standard éöóêåí layout - while many people expressed in forums their concern that there is no tool for them - who uses 2nd Standard layout (built into Windows) -
"Russian, typewriter" - see Control Panel
--
- There are thousands people all around the world - both native speakers and say members of AATSEEL who - saw zillion times in forums - just can NOT use Standard Russian layout éöóêåí -
they don't know such layout at all and while in the "Internet-cafe in London" situation, would NOT be able to use such Virtual Keyboard that offers only Standard layout - more than 40 symbols on UNknown for such people positions, they say in forums, that it would take than 5 minutes to type a short sentence:
- all 33 Russian letter on 'strange' positions for a person who knows weel Latin layout ('A' - on the button with 'F', 'T' - on the button with 'N", etc)
- all punctuation marks (comma, period, colon, etc.) - not on those positions as during Latin input
Those people use - at home - Phonetic layout for Russian (see my message above) when Russian letters occupy 'easy-to-remember' positions - A-A,
O-O,T-T,_E-E,Á-B,Ä-D,Ô-F,Ê-Ê,...
Again, it's not just my personal opinion, but from many forums - such people, being outside of their own computer ALSO want to type
"as I get used to, as at home" - as can do people who use Standard layout.
Outside of former USSR both layouts - Standard and Phonetic - are absolutely equal - a person could choose either one, thus users of both layouts MUST have a tool
"outside of home - type as at gome".
Absence of Phonetic layouts is a VERY bad usability feature (the luck of) of outdated Virtual Keyboards.
--
- Another very bas usability thing on outdated Keyboard like that one:
on the image of the keyboard, they have only Russian letters and no Latin letters (a real physical keyboard has both).
It makes it 100% unusable in many cases - image a user of Standard layout éöóêåí who can NOT type 'blindly' and at home uses say key-top labels or real Russian keyboard which has red Russian letters on the buttons below Latin ones.
Such person would have VERY difficult time (if any) to use that outdated Virtual Keyboard - he does not see that say Russian 'T' is where Latin 'N' on his physical keyboard in that Internet-cafe - so what, he would need to - looking at the image - COUNT position number 6 in the last row to inout Russian 'T'? And so for each letter! It's practically impossible.
I can guess how that BAD usability thing happened on that Keyboard:
- probably long-long time ago this Keyboard was "mouse-only input" Keyboard, then there is no problem, one clicks on Russian 'T' right on the image
- but later they introduced normal (as at home) way of typing - using regular physical keyboard and not mouse. Why? Because technology allows that in this century and because of the numerous complains in many forums,
"It's impossible to participate in discussions or wrote e-mail using mouse - too tedious, takes too long time - such method can be used only to type 1-2 words in a search engine but not for typing sentences"
- so they - as progress adviced - made keyboard-driven input available, BUT forgot to change that old "mouse-time" feature of having only Russian letters on the image
Very, very bad thing... Anyone who can not type 'blindly' tells you the same.
It's bad enough when a user sits at "US English" physical keyboard. but imagine if it's Italian or Spanish physical keyboard - where many symbols such as say '~' are on different buttons - then it's even no reason to COUNT - will not help, a user just will NOT be able to type Russian using regular keyboard, that is, will not be able to type
"as at home" (no one types at home using mouse).
That is, it is a VERY BAD usability thing when a Virtual Keyboard does NOT tell which Latin buttons correspond to which Russian letters.
Such correspondence is critically important...
Did I answer your question?
Again, new tools are often better than older ones, right? especially in this case when that new tool was done only after careful analisys of older tools
and was placed - for purpose - under tough critics by end users in many forums in different countries... |
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kiwifela
Just Starting
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mei Nu wrote: | | just to say that the translit.ru site is really helpful. I practically never use Cyrillic when chatting or writing with Russian people, it just takes so much time to find the letters on the keyboard. with translit.ru I just write like I`m used to and the thing puts the letters in Cyrillic. GREAT!!!!! |
For persons wanting to typed in cyrillic and do not have a Russian keyboard Windows XP has a Desktop keyboard. Go to your control panel - Regional settings - add other languages - click on the datails icon and then install Russain. Now that you have installed Russian go to C:\WINDOWS\system32 and find OSK then right click on OSK and the go to SEND TO and click on DESKTOP (create a shortcut). Then go to your desktop and right click and then click on rename and then rename it Russian keyboard (well it will be the keyboard for the language you have selected) . Double clicck on the icon and you now have your Russian keyboard. shift alt will move it from Russian to english and vice versa -
Cheers Rod |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| kiwifela wrote: |
For persons wanting to typed in cyrillic and do not have a Russian keyboard Windows XP has a Desktop keyboard. |
You can call it easier than by going to System32 -
Start/Run - type OSK
But it's useless for many - especially for those who used to use transliterations, but for others it's not good also:
it's Help clearly states for whom this tool is - for people with illnesses that prevents them to use keyboard - thus they can use mouse.
For other people it's not very useful:
- takes too much space on screen
- people (saw zillion times in forums) find it too tedious to use mouse (no one types English or German using mouse, right?) - takes too long time, not handy at all
The only use of it - as you wrote - to see the layout (if one does not have letters drawn on physical keyboard), but it's much better to buy stickers (they can be bought in many on-line stores both in US and Europe) than have half of your screen busy!
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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So - I know it by the facts from many-many people - users choose on of the two solutions (neither includes OSK):
1) If they want - for some reason - to use Standard Russian layout, then they buy stickers or even print out the image of the layout and have that piece of paper on the border of the screen
2) Other people do not see the need to learn 40+ new positions (in Standard Russian layout not only all 33 Russian letters are on "unusual" position for a person who got used to Latin typing, but also all punctuation marks - often used! - are on "unusual" positions -
comma, period, quotes, question marks, colon, et al
Thus they decide to write with another layout - known even back in 1997 and recommended for example on AATSEEL.org -
so called Phonetic/homophonic layout that lets a person whi knows Latin keyboard very well, type easily with "RU", too -
all punctuation marks are on the same place with "RU" as with "EN", majority of Russian letters - 26 of 33 - are also on the well known buttons:
A-A, O-O, E-E, K-K, T-T,...,:
More details: http://Phonetic.RusWin.net
********************
Now, above we talked about HOME computer (as you mentioned adding Russian via Control Panel - can not be done in a library or Internet-cafe).
What do to in the business center of a hotel or in a library if you need to type Russian?
Now a person does NOT need to use different methods to type at home and outside of the home - s/he can sit down in an Internet-cafe in London  go to a Virtual Keyboard page and start typing at once, as /she got used to (at home):
- using regular keyboard (not mouse)
- using same layout (Standard or Phonetic) s/he uses at home
That is, full simulation of a regular "home typing with system keyboard":
http://Kbd.RusWin.net
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Drama-Queen
Just Starting
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: russian language |
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If you want to perfect your russian language, or even start to learn it i can advbise you russianonweb
there you will find free cources including phonetic course, a lot of grammat stuff and the other useful stuff for your learning |
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lely
Just Starting
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| vox16 wrote: | | PavelUSA wrote: | .
If you already got used to such tool, then it's fine, no one suggests you to switch to another BUT we should NOT recommend such tool to a person who is only starting to look for a Russian typing tool:
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So why is it better than translit.ru ( regarding stanadart éöóêåí version ? |
IMHO, transit.ru is one of the most useful... I have it set by default on one of these Internet explorer window's tabs; it's simple, gives the option of choosing the required letter if you are not sure which combination to use....
i use ut daily... |
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PavelUSA
Frequent Guest
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Moscow-->Silicon Valley
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| lely wrote: |
... translit.ru - one of the most useful... it's simple ... |
It's what I wrote above in my post about that site - many people find it useful - those who got used to such service, with many years of experience.
On the other hand, if a "newcomer" has just started looking for a tool to type Russian in the mode
A-A, Á-B, Ä-D, Ô-F, K-K,...
then this transli.ru is not good at all, outdated, last century - NOT 'simple' at all - see proof below.
If you read Russian see how many people found it NOT simple at all in just one month period:
http://Convert.WinRus.com
But even from the "cold logic" point of view it is NOT simple by any strech of imagination and not handy:
During normal way of typing in Russian or any other language - via system mode of input, with "RU" at the bottom right corner of a screen, a person needs to think only about the content of the text s/he typing.
Windows, Linux, Mac nowadays offer to have several different layouts for one language, thus a person, to type normal, regular way can have:
- either US English or Dvorak layout for typing English
- either one of 2 Standard layouts for Russian or a Phonetic layout when
A-A, Á-B, Ä-D, Ô-F, K-K,... (covered in my previous post here)
System keyboard tools do NOT care what layout is used for "EN" or for "RU".
It's still a normal, regular way of typing - no "combinations" for Russian such as sch/shh/xhh.
Only system input can be called "normal" - for any language (Greek or German) and for Russian too. Input on that 'translit conversion' site can NOT be called "normal".
Regular system input for Russian - on non-Russian computer - is covered (including Phonetic layout when A-A,Á-B,Ä-D,Ô-F,Ê-Ê,...) in the section
"Typing Russian on any keyboard" of the instructional Web site mentioned above.
***********
Moreover, unlike system input, "translit converter" requires to think not only about your content,
but - constantly, all the time! - about "type of words" - otherwise a user will get gibberish if a needed type is not recognized by that user
(and it's with the very-very large number of words of Russian language!):
- in some Russian words use can use Latin 'j' for Russian 'é', for example, "Pojti".
But in the words of other type - can not, for example, "rajon" or "major" - user MUST 'catch' that it's another kind of a word and SAME Russian letter 'é' can NOT be typed this way, it has to be typed different way, author of 'translit conversion' site recommends "+" - "é' as 'j+"
If a user did not recognize that it's another type, s/he will get gibberish -
"ðà¸í", ...
While system method of input Russian does not have such problem - a Russian letter there is typed always the same way, in any word
--
- same thing with Russian 'û' on that 'translit conversion' site - in some words it can be typed as Latin 'y', for example, "myshka", but in some other words it must be typed differently, as 'y+', for example in "âûó÷èë" -
if a user did not 'catch' that it's another kind of word - gibberish - "âþ÷èë"
--
- same thing with Latin 'h' as Russian 'õ' - can be used in words like "Poehal" but NOT in words like "ñõîäèë"
Wow!
One needs constantly to think about 'kind of a word to be typed' to avoid gibberish!
It's impossible to call it "simple" from any point of view - it's clearly NOT "simple".
Again, system method of typing does not have such issue - either one uses Standard or Phonetic layout.
System typing with Phonetic layout is MUCH more simple, progressive, modern and handy than "conversion of translit combinations":
- it's a regular, normal way of typing
- most economical for Russian - one button produces one Russian letter
- no issue with 'type of words' - a Russian letter typed same way in any word
In any case, it's against common sense to try to compare NORMAL way of typing - system method of typing used for English, Russian, German, Greek, Czech,... and some
UNusual, "special way of inputing Russian letters" by
'converting combinations'
It's why I wrote this and you cited me above:
If you already got used to such tool, then it's fine, no one suggests you to switch to another BUT we should NOT recommend such tool to a person who is only starting to look for a Russian typing in the A-A,O-O,T-T,Á-B,Ô-F,... mode
Last edited by PavelUSA on Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:29 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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